YAS Podcast: Mark Bwaggu QSWIR #151 Transcript
In this episode of YAS Podcast, host AM Davies speaks with Mark, the director of the Queer Sex Worker Initiative for Refugees based in Kenya. The conversation sheds light on the organization’s work in providing shelter, food, and support to LGBTQ asylum seekers and refugees who often have no other means of survival but sex work. Mark discusses the immense challenges faced by queer individuals in Kenya, including legal discrimination and societal stigma. Despite these hurdles, the organization continues to advocate for the rights and safety of LGBTQ sex workers through community outreach, skill-building programs, and collaborations with international supporters. Listeners are encouraged to visit QSWIR.org to learn more and contribute to their crucial work.
*This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors.* *This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors.* Begin transcript after opening credits.
AM: Hi everyone. My name is AM Davies, and I’ll be your host today on YAS Podcast. Thank you for being here with us. Before we get into today’s episode, I wanted to remind you that YAS Podcast is produced by YAS Work, which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to changing public perception through media.
If you love our podcast and you’ve been listening, please consider donating donations like yours, help keep this project going. So head to yaswork.org/donate. Today’s guest is Mark from the Queer Sex Worker Initiative for Refugees. They’re the director of this group, which operates out of Kenya. YAS Work has been engaged with advising and assisting in fundraising efforts very recently, and we are so excited to have this conversation and raise awareness about this group of organizers. Hi, mark, please say hello.
Mark: Yeah. Uh, hello everyone. Yeah, are you? Hope everyone is [00:02:00] okay.
AM: How are you today?
Mark: I’m
okay.
AM: Yeah.
Yeah, I’m okay.
AM: So here we are round three, right?
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Trying to make this work. Yeah. And I did want to talk about, so our audience understands, you know, some of the why we’re doing this podcast slightly differently. You know, we, we, it was important for us to accommodate the situation because this conversation is so important. But we had some challenges in the beginning.
Yeah. Yeah,
yeah. You know, the, the internet’s quite different there in Kenya than it is here in the States. Do you wanna share at all, like, what those challenges were for us last week?
Mark: Uh, yeah. Uh, this is we had, uh, the first, uh, time mm-hmm. Having, uh. This it did not happen. It we, we cut it short because, uh, yeah. Our internet [00:03:00] is not that very stable.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: And, uh, sometimes when the internet is stable, then the power is not sometimes gets off. It’s on.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: So, last
time it was really, really something dis uh, disturbing and also, uh. Not fine, but here we are.
AM: Yeah,
Mark: we, we really want to.
You talk about everything.
AM: Yeah, totally.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And I think that over here in the States, um, or maybe even at some other countries, I think we take for granted having solid internet connection, and and there’s a lot of differences between what’s happening for you all in Kenya versus what’s happening here and in other countries.
And that’s what we’re gonna talk about today.
Mark: Alright.
AM: Alright. So first of all, Mark, can you tell us more about Queer Sex [00:04:00] Workers Intitiative for Refugees and what your organization stands for and, and what you’re working on together as a team?
Mark: Yeah. Uh, our organization, it’s, uh, it’s called Queer Sex Workers Initiative for Refugees.
Yeah, I can give, uh, some, some insights kinda history why we, the organization came to be started. Yeah. So most of, uh LGBTQ refugees living in Nairobi they don’t really have opportunities of formal employment or any employment at all. So most of them secretly resort to Sex work for Survival.
AM: Yeah,
Mark: Uh, yeah, for survival, rent food, uh, and other health needs. Uh, yeah. However, in the, in the refugee community, there has been no organization, there was no organization to specifically cater for for the needs of the queer sex workers.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Yeah. So. [00:05:00] Which is, you know, it’s very unique. Our problems are very unique and hardly considered.
So we, we were hardly considered.
Yeah. And, uh, our motivation to, to form a queer sex workers organization also emerge from, from the, you know, continuous sidelining you know, and discrimination. Yeah. Of LGBT sex workers in the community. So we found, uh, a need to, to protect , promote sex work.
So yeah, we, we also wanted to promote sex workers human rights.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Uh, then, yeah, so to address, uh, their fear and, to say they are sex workers. Where they don’t have to fear anything. So that is the reason why we, we really started the organization.
AM: So yeah. So why, so you had mentioned that the refugees, they, they have to turn to sex work for survival because they can’t get jobs.
So can you elaborate on that? Like [00:06:00] what happens when your refugee and when you come to Kenya, like what are what are the limitations and the roadblocks of why they can’t get jobs?
Mark: Basically because of the papers, you know, when you’ve just seeking asylum
AM: mm-hmm.
Mark: There’s
a process.
So with the process there are things you need to start with. You need to start seeking asylum, and after seeking asylum, you need to become a refugee, a fully refugee after, uh, having, uh.
, Interviews with UNHCR and the government officials. So that is when you get to be certified to be a refugee. Okay, but before you becoming a refugee, there are things you cannot do. There are things which cannot be done. Even if , you have a degree.
Even if you have you went to school, you cannot start work. Like formal work.
AM: Okay.
Mark: And also
you cannot even start a small business
AM: okay.
Mark: You are limited [00:07:00] most, uh, yeah. When you see the asylum seeker, most of the things are to be given to you from UNHCR. From where that comes with food. UNHCR.
U-N-H-C-R that is, uh, United Nations.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Human
something. Yeah. Okay, gotcha. So that is the organization, uh, taking care of refugees and asylum seeks.
AM: I see. Okay.
Mark: Yeah. So basically you cannot start a meet. Uh, you cannot start a business. You cannot do any work, any job, because. Until you get certified to be a refugee, that is when you can.
So basically most of like I said, most of the L-G-B-T-Q refugees don’t usually cannot even get work. So it becomes a problem. You that is where some of us went to sex work.
AM: Okay.
Mark: ’cause that was the, the only, , [00:08:00] way out of us, having something to eat and then also, uh, looking for others who don’t have somewhere , to stay.
So that is when we, we had to make a to have a safe house.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: So, yes.
AM: Yeah. And I wanna talk about the safe house, but before that, I just want to help people understand why specifically the L-G-B-T-Q community that are refugees can’t get work. Can you tell us why?
Mark: Uh, because of the identity, first of all.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: And on this side it is what is it called? It is illegal to be L-G-B-T-Q.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: You can not, uh, you can not get services if you get to be known your part of that, so it’s something, it’s illegal first of all.
AM: Yeah,
Mark: it’s,
uh, and also every, every, [00:09:00] uh, service you need to get, you need to fast, not, you don’t need to, to even come out as, as you know, as a queer person.
And we’ve been having this issue mostly with our trans trans, uh, members, because for them it is very, very easily to be identified,
AM: right.
Mark: So. So it’s a, a really a big problem. And also the community around does not make it much easier for us.
So it becomes to be, it’s us to fight for ourselves.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: ’cause
even the, the, the, the, the community you think might get to know, because the community is something, uh, these are brothers, uh, sisters are. Parents, but then you go, you get to be discriminated by the, the first people you need to run to when you have problems or when you need to consult anything.
These are the first people you need to run to, but then [00:10:00] they’re the first people then to also send you away, because most of us, we left our countries because we were identified as, uh, queer people. Basically it, it starts with, uh, families and also with the community and then with the government,
AM: right.
Mark: So yeah. It’s really becomes something problematic.
AM: Yeah, absolutely.
Mark: Mm-hmm.
AM: Um, and so that’s why the Safe House is so important,
Mark: right? Yeah, so the Safe Office is very, very important for us because. We have members who, uh, in the, in, in the beginning, there is a camp like, uh, refugee camps.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Uh, but the refugee camps are way, way, way far in the desert.
It’s called Kakuma Kakuma Refugee Camp.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Yeah. Then which we have in the, in the, uh, in [00:11:00] the community, they, they can support. They’re very how, how can I say these? These, these are primitive people,
AM: okay
Mark: So they don’t get to understand how can a person be queer? Like, they don’t get it. They don’t understand.
And those are problems we’ve been having uh, the people been having in the camps because these are the people they live with, but then they don’t understand them. So there are clashes sometimes they, they, they kill, uh, the mem refugees sometimes fighting. So basically what we did, because we, we have urban refugees, so you you apply to be an urban refugee.
And then as things were going on, we decided to make to put up a shelter
AM: mm-hmm.
Mark: As an
organization for those who don’t have somewhere to stay sex workers. Right. And for those who are faced violence and they cannot go back to where they, they [00:12:00] were. So the house is there for such, you know, such members.
And also we basically, we also get food and then we stock it.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: For those at the shelter, for those who. Don’t have something to eat who really need, uh, need, need food for their kids. Some have kids. So the shelter is there for our members to, first of all the people being allowed in to sleep and then have a rest there.
We have a contract. It’s not a contract, but it’s something we, we agree on. Someone comes, they need to stay there for two months or three months.
AM: Okay.
Mark: For them to stabilize.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: So when they do stabilize, they leave and others come in because we, we work with, uh, with others, uh, small organizations, which also, you know, work with queer, uh, refugees.[00:13:00]
So basically when the other side is full with other shelters, they can be referred to a shelter.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Vice versa if our if our shelter is full and someone, some are other need to, some are to sleep. Mm-hmm. Then we refer them to other other what other organizations? Other shelter.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Yeah. So basically we.
Yes, I was saying basically we, we have such people and then the, the, the shelter hosts at once it hosts like 20 people.
AM: Okay.
Mark: We have daycare. Yeah, we have daycare who are, where people sleep. So it was 20 people at once. Sometimes we might have 10 when others are gone, but yeah.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Okay. Well that, it’s really impressive [00:14:00] that you all created such a helpful and supportive system. Yeah. Um, yeah. Despite being up against so much discrimination, because it’s illegal to be queer, it’s illegal to be a sex worker. And even. Even your neighbors are discriminating against you because they probably believe in these laws.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And so, do you wanna talk about what happened last month when they came to your people, came to your shelter? Do you feel comfortable sharing that story?
Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so I think, uh, last month. We had, uh, we had our, our shelters raided by, uh, police and, and, uh, community chiefs. So first of all, we were identified because when, when we were, uh, looking for a [00:15:00] shelter, looking for a place to, to, to rent for the shelter, we wanted a place where it is.
People are not that very many in the in, in the area around.
AM: Okay,
Mark: so we got it. But of course there are people around. We found in the beginning they did not get to understand who we are.
But, uh, when time was, uh, when time came, you know, you have those scuffles sometimes at the shelter. You know, this one is having problems with the other one, so also they see some, some, uh, trans members who have to, to leave the, the shelter sometimes or coming. So we, we were, you know, identified.
So, uh, I think one of the the neighbors went and, and, uh, reported us.
AM: Okay.
Mark: [00:16:00] So we had we were there like, I think it was. 11:00 PM in the, in the evening sorry. 5:00 PM in the evening.
AM: Okay.
Mark: We were doing a, uh, we were having a meeting with, with with, with some, you know, with the members we work with.
So we, the chiefs came and the police, we were raided. Uh, they took our laptops and also, yeah, they took our, they took our laptops. They took, uh, they arrested us, me and, and other five people.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Yeah, so we, they came, they bundled us off with me and then four others who were taken because they asked for the leaders.
AM: Ah, okay.
Mark: Yeah. , The people taking care of the, of the shelter, the, the, the people who pay rent. So we were bundled off, [00:17:00] we were taken. We, we did not get the bail then, then we had to wait for, I think we were, because we didn’t have, okay, first of all, we have other organizations we try to work with, so when they arrested us, we were taken to to, to the police sales, but then were not given by, sorry, police bonds.
So we were there for two weeks.
It’s a long time.
Were there for two weeks. Yeah. Being, uh, you know, sometimes tortured, you know, they, they ask you, why are you gay? Why are you this, why that, you know, you can, can’t you be normal people? And then as I said before, people don’t get it. Yeah. Yeah. We, we were there for two weeks and then, uh, some, some organization called have pro bono lawyers.
So they came. They helped us out, and then we need to be, uh, we need to go there every Friday to report [00:18:00] ourselves.
AM: You need to check in every Friday.
Mark: Yeah, every Friday we need to check for
AM: how long, how long is that going on for?
Mark: They didn’t tell us. We’re like, we we’re being, uh, what is it called? We are kinda, we don’t know when to, to, that would stop, but then they’re trying to, I think to make us come back every time, and then every now and then until they’ll get to, I don’t know, decide what to do with us or they, we can go to court or whatever. Yeah.
AM: Okay. So does that mean it doesn’t really feel over to you?
Mark: No, it’s not. It’s not because, uh, before we have our friends, also our members who were arrested, but now they were taken to court. They were given three years.
AM: Wait, some of your friends have been incarcerated for three years?
Mark: [00:19:00] Yeah, so we don’t know where where it’ll end, when they will be, uh, when they will let us be. So yeah, it’s not over until they, they, they say it’s over. So you still in, polices,
AM: do you have contact with those community members that are being detained?
Mark: Yeah. Yeah. We sometimes we go and check in because, you know, you, you are allowed to take some food for them.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Some it, so when, when we get some money from, uh, where we raise some small money, uh, we buy some food and then we take it, we leave some, some in the shelter of course, and then, but, there’s one we take for them because they can cook from that side. In, in, in the prison? Yeah. Okay. They’re allowed to cook, so we take them some food.
AM: That’s lovely that you’re,
Mark: [00:20:00] yeah.
AM: That you are still supporting people and and I’m guessing, you do this, this type of work because. These things that you’re talking about affect you directly and you’ve had these experiences.
So do you think that because you’ve experienced these things yourself, that’s helped shape the way the organization runs because you’re the director, right? So you’re the, you’re essentially the visionary?
Mark: Yeah. Uh. You really also with what is going on, you really get to, to understand and also to improvise how the organization is run.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: And how, because the organization might not have the problem a lot, but then the shelter with the community around, with, with, with the neighbors, around, with, with, uh, whoever passes by, they see this shelter [00:21:00] as some, some as a house, hosting outcast member, like community members.
They, they, they don’t want to see us. They don’t, so you need to find a way of, with, with the people I work with to find a way and get to understand how to deal with such things. How to deal with neighbors, how to deal with people who come around, and how, because every match, you may people may know you around the neighbors, but then they don’t believe in who you are.
AM: Right.
Mark: So yeah, it shapes the way we, we sometimes now we deal with the organization as the organization, but also the shelter.
Because the shelter now, it’s the most important thing the organization is doing for now.
AM: It sounds very important.
Mark: Yeah. ’cause it costs the, those who don’t have somewhere to stay.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: It gives out [00:22:00] food to members who don’t have something to eat with their kids. So
there’s a way you need to get to improvise how to, to run the organization with all these, you know, uh, problems and, and, and, uh,
AM: yeah.
Mark: Insults and everything. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And do you, how does it feel or has it, has this happened where your able to do outreach or some sort of educating the people around you who aren’t the government, who aren’t the police, like your neighbors.
Have you, have you been able to touch them in any way or has any, have you seen anyone change their minds or is it just like ongoing and it’s just a, a, a wall of bigotry, right? It’s just a wall of hatred? Or are you able to penetrate at all? [00:23:00]
Mark: For now, it is very, very difficult.
AM: Okay.
Mark: First of all, with, with, with the pe with the community
AM: mm-hmm.
Mark: With the people around. Yeah. And also the whole government as a government.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Yeah. Because, uh. They don’t understand us. First of all, they cannot even understand us. But then what we do, it’s the advocacy. At least we are dealing, we, we we’re trying very, very much to do the advocacy. Sometimes we, when you, because there are times when, when you can go to the police station and then ask for, you know, for someone who can get to understand where you come from.
Because most times what we do, you don’t go to a policeman okay? This comes as a, sometimes you get police officers and they come to our shelter, and then we do some, some, how is it called? Some, uh, some meetings with [00:24:00] them. We tell them what is going on, how we deal with some stuff, and when we get arrested, they don’t need to, torture us like we talk to them.
AM: Okay.
Mark: It’s it’s a big, uh, thing. You might talk to the police sometimes, but then the chiefs don’t want you to, they don’t believe in it. You might want to talk to them about what’s going on, who, how you deal with your life. They don’t want to. So basically what, what we do, it’s, we do some, uh, outreaches, but we do it a nd then we bring some people to teach and, and, and also rest assure our members how things have to be. And also because most, what, what we always say, it’s security fast,
AM: Right.
Mark: Safety is first. Okay? It’s called safety. Yeah, it’s safety first,
AM: Right.
Mark: So before you, you, you would [00:25:00] even want to, put out your queerness first.
Get to understand,
AM: Right.
Mark: Where are you putting out your queerness? Sometimes you need to hide yourself. Okay. You know, depending on where you are
AM: mm-hmm.
Mark: You don’t need
to come out as I’m queer and, and then you, you trans, you, you know, you, you are dressing and wearing this, wearing that as safety first. So you also need to get to understand the community you are in, the way you can deal with it and the way you, you, you need to,
AM: okay.
Mark: Yeah.
The Queer Sex Workers Initiative for refugees in Kenya is doing incredible work despite the hurdles they experience in a country where being queer or a sex worker is illegal, they pay rent to maintain a shelter for their community members. One where they provide food and teach skills like creating crafts and jewelry.
Their shelter and work is a safe haven for Kenyan refugees. That identify as queer and [00:26:00] or a sex worker. Visit QSWIR.org to learn more and to donate to their mission.
AM: So what are some triumphs and some wins and that have come from, because you’ve been working, you’ve started the organization in 2019. Am I getting that right?
Mark: Yeah,
AM: yeah,
Mark: yeah.
That was in Corona.
AM: Yeah. So what types of, of joyous moments have you had and what types of wins have you had despite everything you’re up against?
Mark: Uh, with advocacy, we it’s really going wide and, uh, okay. Yeah. I’m very thankful with the people I work with. They have been doing a lot of great job, great work. Uh, like I said, at the shelter, we are trying very hard to at least someone to get a meal, someone to have some, somewhere to sleep.
AM: [00:27:00] Yeah.
Mark: You know,
It’s, it changes someone’s life.
Has
a lot of, help with our members, with those who, who really are stressed with those who really don’t have somewhere to, to go. So yeah, those are some of our achievements. They’re not that very much, but yeah,
AM: I think it’s huge.
Mark: We also have, uh, yeah, we also try to, we also, uh, what is it called?
We work with an organization called CVT.
AM: Okay.
Mark: So these, these, uh, these guys. Work with people, uh, with trauma and also because we have a lot of members who have trauma. Sometimes they’re raped, sometimes they, uh, when they’re raped, they don’t have where to report because you cannot be, uh, what they call a man having sex with, with a man.
They cannot get it. That is MSM. They cannot get it. And, and, uh, probably you cannot report. [00:28:00] But then where do you go to now that is where our shelter comes in. You come, uh, members from CVT, they come, they, you know, uh, try to work out things with you, talk and basically we have also those, uh, sharing groups.
On Sundays.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: So, yeah.
Yeah. That
is how we deal with, with some of the things.
AM: And I think what you guys are doing is incredible work and so brave and resilient. I’m just, I’m super impressed by the work that you’re doing. Not impressed. I don’t know if that’s the right word, but grateful,
Mark: thank you.
AM: Yeah. In awe of all of you. So I think that just having the shelter alone is, is huge. Having a safe space is so important for mental health and for physical health, for people who are [00:29:00] recovering from assault. And you also have programs that your organization is working on. Can you share with us some of those programs?
Like the classes?
Mark: Yeah.
AM: And the, the types of meetings and the teachings that you guys do?
Mark: Yeah. Uh, we have programs. Mm-hmm. Basically, uh, with during the month what we do, some of the programs we have, we do an, we do outreaches. Giving out food.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: We, uh, we get food, we buy it, and then we go distributing them, distributing these food supplies to those who need it.
So we have also those group sessions.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: It’s part of the program we have. Where we people come, we talk about what, what is really happening in our lives, what the problems we are going through. [00:30:00] And, uh, yeah. And also we have, uh, another program. It’s, uh, it’s, uh, we do, we make a craft, handmade craft.
These, we can, we do sometimes make rugs. We make, uh, uh, sandals. We make, uh, we have, uh, we, we tailor like making bags. Then bangles, like,
AM: nice.
Yeah,
Mark: yeah. Bangles. And then, yeah. So it keeps us, you know, it keeps, and these, these are done when we having the sessions, the groups, because we need to do something while we are having the talks.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Yeah. That is a program. And then the when the good, uh, when the things are, are finished, like the crafts and everything we, there, there’s, uh, an organization [00:31:00] called d it’s a Danish refugee council. It’s for, for the Danish it’s, it’s a Danish refugee council. So this, this, uh, this prog, uh, this organization it’s, uh, it helps us to find, you know, a malls or supermarkets or big places where we can go and sell these, sell these things which are being done at, at, uh, the shelter.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: So it’s, it’s also something good and it’s something we would also want to put in, uh, a lot of effort.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Because sometimes you might not get the money. You fundraise.
AM: Right,
right.
Mark: So, and these are small things. We, we can get some supply, some supplies, money, and then do something
AM: right,
Mark: because the money which comes out from, from selling, uh, the staff, they help, they come back to the shelter and [00:32:00] then help.
AM: That’s awesome.
Mark: Yeah. So that’s a program we started also, I think two years back.
So.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Yeah. It’s still small, but let’s hope we it’ll have some bigger impact.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: And also, yeah, we also started, uh, there’s a program we’re starting of, uh, the magazine. It’s, it’s something big. It’s still big, but we’re trying very hard. We are trying to bring it out.
AM: Yeah, I’ve seen some of the things through pictures that you all make and, um, so you make, you teach people to make the things, the bangles and the bags and, and other crafts, arts and crafts. And then do you do you as a shelter, like sell those things or, um, do the people who made them sell them? So how does that, and then you, so you sell them and [00:33:00] then you use the money to like buy food and pay for rent for the shelter? Is that how that works?
Mark: Yeah. Uh, what we do you, we sometimes we bring, uh. Tutors, like those who, uh, teach , the instructors who know what we go to these marketplaces.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: And then we get someone who really knows something. If it’s sandals, if this Sunday we’re going to make sandals or we are going to like, uh, we can, we sometimes we uh, we decide if it is sandals. Then we get someone from, from the market comes and teaches us,
AM: oh,
Mark: how to
do this simple. Yeah.
How to do the, you know, the simple sandals. And if it is bangals, we go, we do the same. We go to, to these marketplaces. We get someone who knows how to do them and then comes and teaches us.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Yeah. So that’s how we do it. Okay. And [00:34:00] uh, yeah,
AM: so it sounds like. Tell me if I’m wrong, but are there any, are there other people outside of your community that aren’t queer, that aren’t sex workers that do support you?
Mark: No.
AM: No? Okay.
Mark: No.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Basically the help we get it from new people.
AM: New people? Is that what you said?
Mark: No, no, no. You like the international community.
AM: Oh, like us. I see. Mm-hmm.
Mark: This,
yeah, this side it’s really very difficult to get, you know, someone to help you out. Okay. More so if it is the queer part of it.
AM: Oh. So that’s worse you think?
with queer members
Mark: and, and, and everything because it is illegal, first of all, so someone cannot really try to associate with you.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Yeah, so basically what we do, the help we get, it’s [00:35:00] mostly from, from fundraising.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: Yeah. You know, trying to apply for grants and then yeah.
If you get a small grant that helps you to deal with everything.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: You had also mentioned a magazine. Can we talk about what that vision is with your group about the magazine?
Mark: Yeah. Uh, with the magazine, it was something we started which we wanted to make an, uh, to do, uh, an like on, on a larger scale.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Or to reach, uh, you know, a lot of people out there. What we, what we decided to do with the magazine, there are sections, okay. Sections where we, we talk about, uh, we have, we, we might, we can have one person and they talk about [00:36:00] themselves, how they came to be, you know, how they came from, from their country to be refugees here, and also what do they think about themselves? About, uh, the way they are, you know, the, the, they, they’re handled in the community around. So yeah, that we put that section.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Yeah. And then also, uh, we also, what we want to put in. We also with the magazine, want to put in, uh, links to organizations which, uh, give grants to sex workers.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Uh, also we want to collaborate with other organizations.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: To,
it’s like mapping to put their organizations who really help out.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: When they’re reached, you know. Yeah, so [00:37:00] anyone who wants, uh, but not, also, not only here in Kenya, but also out there, maybe NSFW it might be other organizations which can help out in case there’s something.
So we want to identify also those organizations and also talk, uh, talk to them and then we be in case someone needs their help, we refund we refer this, this uh, this, uh, anyone who reads out the magazine to get the help.
AM: Yeah.
And so the-
Mark: yeah, but also it was, it was basically for advocacy.
We wanted to do a lot of advocacy because here things are still people are still very, very dark.
AM: Why- do you have an understanding of why [00:38:00] that being queer is illegal in your country? Like, do you know where that comes from?
Mark: Yeah. Traditionally there are are things our parents didn’t, don’t want.
AM: Okay.
Mark: So it is not only with, with the people we stay with, but also the, the, uh, religious leaders.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Also, the the people who really need to make the change in the laws
AM: mm-hmm.
Mark: Are the most people who don’t want it. Right. Want to pass such laws. So even the mps, government leaders, they don’t. So it’s really basically something big. ’cause you’re not fighting only, uh, with, with the community, with the people you’re living in the community with, but also with a lot of big people who, and then these are the people who really need to make, the changes.
But yeah, they’re the [00:39:00] same people who don’t like it at all, so.
AM: Right.
Mark: Yeah, because the people, uh, the, the, the policy makers.
They don’t like it. And then, uh, religious leaders who talk to these people, who talk to the president, who talk to, they don’t also second it. So it’s really something big we are fighting, uh, with. But
AM: yeah,
Mark: you know, it starts small. It starts with us, with you as a person,
AM: Right.
Mark: When you get someone and then you make them to understand, uh, your point of view, where it comes from, how you know.
You start with someone.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: And you believe that someone will also tell someone and that someone tells someone.
AM: Sure.
Mark: You never know.
AM: Yeah. So it sounds like the political leaders and the policy makers are making decisions based off of religion?
Mark: traditionally, and also religion. [00:40:00]
AM: Traditionally, meaning they want people to be a normal family, a man and a wife, and have children.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: So that’s really important to the policymakers and the leadership in Kenya?
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: And, uh, yeah, but, but also these are things you cannot they’re doing very much to stop it, but it can, queerness cannot be stopped.
AM: Of course not. Yeah.
Mark: ’cause someone identifying the, the, the someone trying to identify themselves, they start in secondary schools, primary schools.
So this is something they cannot it’s two way. They really want to, to stop it, but it cannot be stopped.
AM: Right.
Mark: So, yeah, it’s,
AM: yeah. That’s very frustrating. Very frustrating. We also have people in power who think those things here, and they’re also trying to dismantle rights for queer and trans [00:41:00] people as well.
And it’s very distressing at the thought of our laws being dismantled, and it must be even more so distressing living in that reality all the time. And so I just wonder like how far away it is for your government to change their perspective and like who helps them?
Like, there are other, are there other organizations or leaders that- d o you see any movement, do you see any glimmer of hope is what I’m asking? I think,
Mark: Not until we do, we, we really basically, uh, do a lot of shouting and advocating.
AM: Okay.
Mark: Otherwise, for now, uh, I won’t lie. It’s something you, nothing can, nothing is done or [00:42:00] said can change things.
Because because where we come from and, and like I said, the people who have to make these, uh, policies and, and everything are the people really against.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: So other organizations have tried U-N-H-C-R-F, trying, other NGOs are trying, but. As the people, because also the people, the people the, the, the citizens don’t like it.
So these are,
AM: I see..
Mark: Yeah. So it’s, even if the government would want to do something about it, they cannot because the people they’re governing are against it. So
AM: I understand.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Yeah, I understand.
What is it, what’s important for people to know about your work and how they can [00:43:00] support you?
Mark: Yeah. I think I can’t say everything about the organization. Okay. But we have a website.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: Uh, uh, we can share it out.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: We have social media platforms, Twitter, uh, Instagram, and Facebook.
These really, these, uh, these, these, uh, social media platforms, they really, uh, bring out what we do, what we are doing and how we’re doing things.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Yeah. So, and also, uh, we really, uh, I think about the shelter. This is something, uh, we need, we, we, we praying, uh, and, and, uh, to stay, to, to be to work out.
Because it helps a lot of people. It helps a lot. And even us, the leaders, it helps you with, with knowing what to do, how [00:44:00] to deal with, people without help. We need help from you guys out there who really think uh, what we’re doing. It’s very important and it’s helping out. We need the help.
And now we are going in, in, in the next month. We need rent. For
AM: right
Mark: the shelter. Yeah. We need food for, you know, our members who have who have HIV.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Mark: And they need these meals. So yeah, we, we, we, we crying out here for help out there. We really need it. And when you do, it helps a lot of people here beside.
It’s, it, it might be small from your side, but for us it is. It is something big.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
Okay. And we’ll put all of those links to the website and to your, your social media in the description so people can visit that [00:45:00] website. Visit the GoFundMe because we built a website, we built a GoFundMe link.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And so yeah, we really want people to go, you know, become monthly donors is the goal, right?
Mark: Yeah, yeah.
AM: So for sustainability and consistency is what we really, because. What would be great is if that pressure every month of trying to make rent for the shelter, which is the most important thing.
That must put a lot of strain on, you know, on top of all of the other things that you’re dealing with.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: So it’s like. If we could get monthly donors to commit even just a little bit a month, right? That could help keep the roof over your heads to help to keep helping more people.
Mark: Yes.
AM: That’s idea. Yeah.
Mark, what is, can you share a little bit about yourself as a person, as an individual? [00:46:00] Like what do you do to bring yourself joy? What. How do you get rest as the director of all of this? There’s a lot of weight on your shoulders. And, just what, what’s life like for you when you’re not working?
Or are you always working? Can you just share what your life is like personally? Just a little bit?
Mark: Yeah. Basically with my life it’s, uh, it’s always work. Most times because even if you try to not go at the shelter when it’s, it’s, you want to, you know, to have some space some much, most times your phone keeps calling because a lot of, uh, you know, people out there need help.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: And I’m always on phone. Now let’s work. Someone needs this. You don’t have it, then you need to call someone else who [00:47:00] has it.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: To help out. So with work it’s continuous. Mm-hmm. There’s no, I don’t have that, kind of free time always. But when I get some free you know, free time.
I, I really like swim, like
AM: nice.
Mark: I want to swim. I really like swimming. And, uh, this is my mechanism of, uh, trying to cope up with everything. Sometimes to forget, sometimes to think.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: So, yeah, swimming does it for me. And uh, also having those talks. Most times the group talks works for me because the people you’re helping, I would think you I don’t know. Sometimes you, you think, uh, do they think I’m, I don’t break down? Or do they think I don’t really also get, have, uh, these, the same problems they have because we, we, [00:48:00] with the same people we, we face the same problems. We face the same people out there, so.
What they face, it’s also what I face. But then you need to be more bold and, uh, tough for you to keep on helping each other and people out there. So, yeah. But the group sessions work for me because I get, uh, now there I get time to, to also speak out what. I’m holding inside also to share what, what I think to fill my, my mind.
Yeah. And, uh, also like movies. So
AM: what kind of movies do you like?
Mark: Romantic movies.
AM: Romantic movies.
Mark: Uh, thrillers
AM: Nice.
Mark: Yeah. So,
yeah.
AM: Cool. Cool.
Mark: Is there anything else that you want our listeners to know before we close out today’s session?
Yeah. Uh, I [00:49:00] want to everyone out there to know YAS Work has done a lot of help with our organization because if it, if it wasn’t YAS Work, I wouldn’t have been here. To even listen to me or get to know how we live, how, what, what our organization is doing the help we’re giving out there.
So you are listening to this because of, the YAS Work. So I’m really, first of all, grateful and the people we’re also working with Susan
AM: yeah. Susan. That’s great. Yeah.
Mark: Yeah. We’re really, really grateful for this, and I would encourage people to donate.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Because it does a lot of work, a lot of things they don’t see, but it makes some important impact out here.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: Mostly to us, because if it wasn’t [00:50:00] you. I don’t know where I’ll be. Of course we’ll be there, but at least some, you know, people out here are listening and then we really want you guys to donate to
AM: Yeah.
Mark: the organization as it has done a lot of good things because it is not doing it only there in the US but also out here.
AM: Yeah.
Mark: In Africa.
Yeah. So.
It’s the connection. It’s, I believe it is the advocacy also we’ve been doing that is why we, we, we were seen by you. So yeah, I would really, really want to thank you. You’re doing a great job. And. Everything is nice.
AM: You all are doing a great job and now more than ever, communities should be connected and helping each other because these issues that we’re facing are global and they’re on a spectrum [00:51:00] of being harder in some places, not as hard in other places.
But it’s still hard all around. And if other countries could pressure your country
Mark: Mm-hmm.
AM: and the surrounding countries that you’re fleeing from. Mm-hmm. Um, and if we can have these conversations and educate each other, then maybe globally we can make a difference.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Um, and so. I, it’s an honor for YAS Work for me, myself to, to help because because we can and we should, you know, it’s that simple for me. We can and we should.
Mark: Thank you.
AM: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us and for educating our listeners on what’s happening in Kenya.
Mark: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And, um, thank you to our listeners for tuning in, and please find [00:52:00] some extra money in your wallet to donate to the Queer Sex Workers Initiative for Refugees.
You can head to QSWIR.org and those links will be in the description below so you can easily access that after listening. Thank you so much everyone, and we’ll see you next time. Bye
Mark: bye.