YAS Podcast: Jack Parker #143 Transcript
In this episode of YAS Podcast, host AM Davies (AMD) discusses the intricate facets of sex work and identity with guest Jack Parker, a trans sex worker and activist. The conversation delves into Parker’s experiences within the sex work community, the transition from pre- to post-transition work, and the unique challenges faced by trans sex workers. They also touch upon the broader socio-political landscape affecting sex work, including recent legislative efforts in the UK and their global implications. Special attention is given to Parker’s new book ‘Hooker Mentality,’ which explores overarching themes of commodification, intimacy, and the reframing of societal norms around sex work. The episode offers an insightful look into the ways sex work redefines concepts of safety, value, and power.
*This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors.* Begin transcript after opening credits.
Hi everyone. AMD here, your host for Today’s YAS Podcast session. Thank you so much for being with us. Today’s episode is going to be our last one for, um, a couple of months. We’re taking a little summer break, so just wanted to let you know that if you’re, um, noticing that there’s less episodes coming out, it’s because we are working.
Over the summer to bring you new episodes in the fall. So, um, some [00:01:00] episodes coming up. We’ll be with Fired Up Stilettos, um, a an organization working over in New Zealand for strippers rights over in the clubs out there. I. We have interviewed East London Stripper Collective, so that’s coming out soon as well.
Um, we’re also getting ready to interview Best Practices Policy Project, um, AKA B, triple P, and talking about the work that they do with the UN in raising awareness about sex workers rights globally. I mean, the list goes on. We have so many exciting things coming up for you this fall.
Um, and I just wanted to let you know that there are still spaces open for episodes to be recorded to air this fall. So if you are interested in being on the podcast or you know a guest like you know of somebody, that would be a great guest. Please feel free to let them know to apply. You can head to our website at yaspodcast.com.
Apply to be a guest. You can also email us or DM [00:02:00] us on Instagram. All of our contact info is on yaspodcast.com. So that was one thing. And I also wanted to say that these, this month’s, particular episodes were really near and dear to my heart. Really important to me. Um, and I hope important to the community as we made it a priority to, um, emphasize and prioritize queer, trans, gay, gay L-G-B-T-Q-I-A voices for this particular month in honor of pride month, um, and also in honor of our trans community that specifically is going through it an extremely difficult time given the current administration and the current atmosphere in our society and in the world. Um, and also as someone who uses they them pronouns and identifies as bi gender, this was really important for me to have these really nuanced conversations, um, and for the community to understand and raise awareness that in the community we are made up [00:03:00] of many, many diverse voices. We’re not all women. We’re not all girls. We identify in many different ways and, um, for us to embrace that and to, um, you know, understand the importance of making sure everyone feels included.
So that was really important to me personally. I. And I wanna thank all of our guests for the whole first half of this year for joining us. It’s been such an incredible season. I met so many people, I learned so many new things, and I hope you have too. Please always feel free to write into us and share with us what you’re thinking, how you’re feeling about things that you heard.
Good or bad. Um, we’re always open to receiving complaints. We’re always opening open to receiving positive feedback. So however you wanna show up, we are here for that as well. So we’re looking forward to hearing from you, and I’m looking forward for you to hear this amazing interview that I did with Jack Parker.
AMD: So I am here with Jack Parker. [00:04:00] Jack is in the room. Would you mind saying hello to everyone?
Jack: Hello everyone.
AMD: Hello. Um, Jack, I’m so excited to have you here and talk about all of the things, um, specifically your book that I just got in the mail. But, but to start us off, would you mind sharing with our audience what pronouns you prefer to use?
Jack: Yep. I use he/they pronouns.
AMD: Great. And do you identify as a sex worker or no?
Jack: Yes, I do.
AMD: Lovely. Thank you for sharing. Um, so you’re all the way in the UK you’re calling from today, right?
Jack: Yes, I am.
AMD: Yes. And you do a bunch of work over in the UK regarding sex work and you know, education around sex work. Could you sort of fill our audience in, give a little synopsis on you and what you’re up to and what’s going on in your world and you know what you stand for?
Jack: Yeah. Happy to. [00:05:00] Um, I got into sort of the sex worker activism space, I wanna say like during COVID, so like five years ago-ish. Mm. Um, and I’d been doing sex work for years before that, but wasn’t very plugged into community at all. And basically as soon as I found community, I was kind of all in. Um, and I, I love writing, so I pretty immediately started a blog, uh, mostly because I was looking for other people’s writing and didn’t find enough of it about like, the experience of being a sex worker and found myself really frustrated.
And through that and through kind of engaging with community, I started to, you know, get more involved. Started to advocate for sex workers as a larger group rather than just speaking about my own experience. Uh, and from there started to work with kind of different sex worker organizations in the UK writing for them, speaking at events.
So I went from speaking at the sex work strike in soho to speaking at some SWARM [00:06:00] events and writing for their website. Um, SWARM is for anyone who doesn’t know the sex worker advocacy and resistance movement in the UK, um, which is like one of our larger sex worker organizations and. Uh, also supporting people in THORN, which is the Trans Hooker Resistance Network.
Um, which is like fairly new here and is for trans sex workers specifically, which was really sorely needed here. So
AMD: I see.
Jack: Amazing that we have that specifically.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, and then, you know, throughout that I also have dipped in and out of like charity work, peer support work with sex workers, although.
Uh, I have, I have found from my time doing that, that that is much less my vibe than grassroots community stuff, which is why I’m not really in the charity sector around sex work anymore. It feels a bit too disconnected and weird to me.
AMD: Okay.
Jack: So I prefer to be kind of in it with my peers rather than this having this weird disconnect.
AMD: I hear that. [00:07:00] Yeah. I, I love that you mentioned THORN and you said that it was really needed there. Um. Was there really not a lot of work around trans people or trans sex workers generally before that organization popped up? Like was there just a void for that?
Jack: Yeah, I’d say there’s, there’s sort of a gap where it’s not that the other sex worker organizations here don’t care about trans people or uplift them.
Um, in organizing they do, but
AMD: mm-hmm.
Jack: Because trans people aren’t the focus. It is often like as an afterthought or there are efforts made, inclusion instead of the focus being trans sex workers, which, you know, leads to trans sex workers being pretty isolated. A lot of events, even when they try to be inclusive, aren’t strictly taking into account the ways that sex work can be fundamentally different for trans people and the way that we feel about sex work can be very different.
So that it can feel weird to be [00:08:00] in a space where it’s, it’s almost exclusively, uh, cis women sometimes, or at least overwhelmingly cis women.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: And being there as like a trans sex worker, there being a smattering of non-binary people who are present. A few trans women and a few trans men, and like no.
Like no cohesion there. There’s you feel very alone.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, even in a room where there are a couple of other people there, whereas in a room where it is all trans sex workers, suddenly we’re focusing on the things that are specific to us, like. Problems we have with escorting sites that are specific to trans sex workers or problems with online platforms, or problems with stripping venues, like all kinds of different issues that are specific to us.
And they don’t have to be a footnote in a meeting where we’re mostly talking about issues that cis workers are having.
AMD: Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense because I, it’s so interesting. I love being in a room full of sex workers, but recently [00:09:00] my partner and I were at a gay bar. And I had mentioned to him, and this is no shade to sex workers, but I had mentioned to him this space, this type of space is where I feel the absolute most comfortable because I, because there’s so much variety here, whereas in the sex worker space, I feel is highly femme, which is great and I, I understand why it is that way.
Um, but I just love being around like energy of all diverse types of gender, energy and sexuality, energy. Um, and I felt like a struggle towards, you know, even still now, um, when I’m in a room, in a space, whether it’s online or in person with a lot of sex workers who were all highly feminized, which I used to do, right?
So I used to also do that. And, um. I just kind of feel like that struggle, like I, I don’t, I [00:10:00] kind of feel like I don’t fit in anymore since coming out with my own identity. Have you experienced something similar, because from what I’ve read about you is that you, you were doing sex work before you decided to, um, come out as more trans as you are now.
Am I getting that right? Yeah. That you were more feminized in the beginning. Can you, do you relate to anything that I’m saying?
Jack: Yeah, definitely.
Like when I first started to engage with sort of sex worker spaces, I was still presenting as a cis woman in the beginning. I like hadn’t really fully worked out that I was trans yet, or accepted it enough to admit it to myself.
But there was also a period of time where I had realized I was trans but wasn’t acting on it and wasn’t telling anyone.
AMD: Right.
Jack: And through both of those periods of time when I was like starting to dip my toes into sex worker community, um, it. There was this like greater solidarity, I think from the people I interacted with, even who didn’t [00:11:00] know me.
Whereas what I find now is there are a bunch of sex workers who I’m close with, who I’ve done activism with for a long time, and they’re amazing and so welcoming to me still. But when I meet new people
AMD: mm-hmm.
Jack: There is, there is less of that instant solidarity, I think because of me being trans.
AMD: Okay.
Jack: And the ways that certain people react to me in sex worker spaces if I don’t already know them, has shifted.
And I do feel a bit more like an outsider. I feel like even though elements of my experience are gonna completely mirror someone else’s, especially because I started working pre-transition, so like I can talk about something that happened to me five or six years ago, and it’ll be the same thing that they’re experiencing now.
So I have useful advice.
AMD: Sure.
Jack: But to them I don’t, because they’re seeing this disconnect between us.
AMD: Right, because of what they’re seeing visually as opposed to like understanding the whole picture. Is that, is that what you mean with the disconnect?
Jack: Yeah.
Yeah. Somewhat that and somewhat that. Even just knowing I’m trans makes them assume that I [00:12:00] must work so differently now.
And admittedly, I do work pretty differently now since transitioning. But you know, I still have the experience pre-transition to like reflect on and offer advice based on
AMD: Right.
Jack: And it wasn’t that long ago for me.
AMD: Right.
Jack: Like I’ve, I’ve been transitioning for I think like, you know, four and a bit years or something like since I came out.
AMD: Right. And you had been doing sex work for several years before you started transitioning?
Jack: Yeah, exactly. Five years before.
AMD: ,
Here’s, here’s a question to sort of follow up with that. Um, are there specific ways that sex work has helped you unlearn or reframe things you were taught about safety value or power. Um, and, and how is it different from, you know, when you first started doing sex work to now? Or does it all sort of like, kind of mi mix together?
Jack: Yeah, I think I. I think with [00:13:00] safety, like to go through those things kind of one by one.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, it, it reframed a lot of how I thought about like the safety and risk assessment and danger in my day-to-day life. Like, I remember pre-ex work being like very, just sort of generally afraid of things in my life.
AMD: Mm-hmm.
Jack: Like I, I thought that the level of risk to me was higher than it was of things like physical violence. Not to say that the risk wasn’t there previously. Like where I grew, grew up, and sort of the general attitudes there. And also like homophobia I experienced because before transitioning I was like openly a lesbian.
AMD: Okay.
Jack: And the ways that people responded to me because of that were not good.
AMD: I see.
Jack: Um, I definitely assumed that my level of risk was a lot higher than it was and had this kind of disproportionate level of anxiety. And then after engaging in sex work, when you get to the point where you sort of like.
Skip over all of the things people tell you not to do that are dangerous all the way [00:14:00] past that to like, I’m going to a stranger’s house. I have never seen them. I do not know their real name, and we are going to have sex and they’re gonna pay me, and then I’m gonna leave their house and no one even knows the house I’m going to.
Because in the beginning I definitely was not careful. I didn’t screen. I,
I see
was very young as well when I started, like I started at 17 and then after that, like going back into my day-to-day life, I was like, well, everything feels very safe now comparatively, because I did not die when I did the thing everyone said was the most dangerous.
AMD: Yeah,
Jack: so it really changed how I was perceiving day-to-day life. And changed my experience of anxiety from things. That’s not to say that it went away, but I definitely understood certain things I was experiencing as not being fully rational or as being over exaggerated. Whereas before I just thought it was accurate threat assessment.
AMD: Right, right. And do you think that was like partially, we talked about this recently on a different episode. Do you think that’s partially [00:15:00] to do with like messaging from society? Like yes, sex work can be dangerous, but- do you think that there’s like a level of lying that’s happening or like scare tactics that’s happening for sex workers?
Jack: Yeah, I think somewhat and some of it also is just that humans aren’t very good at passing statistics. I.
AMD: Mm.
Jack: So like we hear about like how common violence is for sex workers, but we hear about this in the context of like over a year how many sex workers were assaulted, right?
AMD: Mm-hmm.
Jack: But like if you are seeing people really high volume, like I was for a while, there would be periods where I would see like 40, 50 clients in a month.
AMD: Mm.
Jack: Um, I might go a month with like nothing bad happening to me. Really, like having some clients who I found kind of annoying or like irritating things happening to me while I was with clients, right. But no assault, nothing like that. And so I’m like, okay, well I’ve seen like 50 clients and nothing bad has happened.
Mm. So like, even if I, the next month got assaulted by one, like. [00:16:00] Contextually, okay. I’ve seen 51 clients before Something bad happens,
AMD: Right.
Jack: So like the way that feels is very different to the statistics of. Um, you know, sex workers being assaulted x number of times in a year. The way that it feels viscerally to experience it is different.
And so if it’s like, okay, well there’s like a one in 50 chance, I mean, these are numbers I’m kind of pulling out of my ass just based on like different periods I’ve worked during. It feels very different to this like the general idea of how many times that might happen. And let’s say that you don’t see that many clients like you go lower volume, which I have worked at much lower volume during periods.
I might have a good six month period where nothing bad at all happens, and I have a really good six months and I’m like, I’m making money and everything’s going well.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: And so it’s like, okay, I don’t feel like I’m in any danger. Yeah. Until the next time something bad happens.
AMD: Yeah. I’m thinking I’ve like literally am flashing through my head of all of like these like dates, like with regular civilian dudes that I’ve been [00:17:00] on and where I’m like, you know.
Something bad has happened. Yeah. And it’s, I’m not even doing sex work. Right. I am. I’m just trying to hang out and something’s happening. So it’s not sex work. It’s, um, you know.
Jack: Yes, exactly.
AMD: I choose the bear. I choose the bear. Um, well, I would love to, um, talk about, you know, how. Selling sex can per, has, has permanently shifted your perspective on the world and, um, you know, what hooker mentality means to you, because I wanna get into the book.
Um, and so, you know, you, besides the safety factor that we just talked about, what are some other ways that selling sex has permanently shifted your perspective? And, and let’s talk about hooker mentality, um, blended in with that, if possible. I.
Jack: [00:18:00] Yeah, I think, um, when you start selling sex because it is this like massive taboo in society, it sort of auto primes you to question everything and all of these other taboos because you’re breaking one that is like one of the most extreme.
I don’t know that I would necessarily say it is the most extreme, but it’s definitely up there. Um, so you know, you, you start selling sex and you realize actually all these things that I’ve heard about this are myths, or they’re exaggerations. People are telling me that I’m sinful or an awful like immoral person for doing that.
And you realize like, okay, well that’s complete bullshit and this is what the experience is really like. And so someone comes at you with another like cultural taboo and then you are immediately like, okay, well actually I’m, I’m doing a thing that you would probably react the same way to already.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: So I am gonna question that.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, and from there it sort of explodes out into all of the different facets of life. So, you know, you hear people talking about [00:19:00] sex work and saying that it’s not really a choice because there’s this like coercive force behind capitalism. And then you realize, okay, if you are gonna frame it like that, does that not apply to all work?
Exactly. Now we’re asking questions about like the, you know, like systemic nature of coercion in capitalism and we’re contextualizing it and saying, okay, well if I feel like I’m making choices here and I feel like they matter and my autonomy should be respected, that applies to other workers too.
But at the same time, it’s not like those arguments have nothing useful to them. Sometimes they do. You know, you hear that and you think, yeah, it is fucked up that because I’m in a situation of financial desperation, I’m gonna make decisions when doing sex work that are riskier for me. Mm. And let’s think about how that works with loads of other jobs like.
You know, fucking long haul fishing and
AMD: Yeah,
Jack: like logging and mining.
AMD: Mm-hmm.
Jack: And suddenly you are thinking about this in terms of jobs you might not even come up across very often, right?
AMD: Mm-hmm.
Jack: Like I don’t live in [00:20:00] a mining town or a town with that kind of history, but now I’m thinking about it, I’m thinking about like, yeah, that’s a dangerous profession where people are exploited and you know, there’s a solidarity there.
Um, and the same thing with relationships. I think there is this. Um, reaction that I think is, is really common for sex workers to have kind of across the board, but especially for those who have sold sex. Mm-hmm. In person is that. I’ll, I’ll be at a hookup with someone and I’ll think to myself, because the hookup isn’t going great, like they’re just not very good, and I’m not enjoying myself particularly that I’m like, you know what?
A client could have done this for me and I would’ve been getting paid, and I’m annoyed that I’m not getting paid. And yeah, it causes me to expect more from people, right?
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Like I did. I let hookups behave like that. Previously, but now I don’t because I’m like, you know what? I get paid to pub up with this shit and if you are not gonna pay me, then I’m gonna have a real orgasm.
AMD: That’s [00:21:00] amazing..
I’m not,
Jack: I’m not pretending now.
AMD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That God, that’s amazing. Again, I’m having like flashes of like horrible hookups and I’m like, yeah. I remember one in particular I like snuck out, like he had passed out and I was like, I just gotta get outta here. And I like. I mean, it wasn’t like anything scary.
It was just unpleasurable. It was boring, it was stupid, you know?
Jack: Yeah.
AMD: And I was like, I just, I gotta leave before he wakes up and think that something like this is happening again, because this, like you said, I’m not getting paid and um, you didn’t do anything for me. So why am I here?
Jack: Yeah.
AMD: Literally. Why?
Yeah. He was all butt hurt too. Who cares? Um, so I’m guessing that’s like, that’s kind of the basis of hooker mentality. It’s like how we perceive the world differently once we become sex workers and, and how we sort of operate in the world. Am I getting that right?
Jack: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
AMD: Yeah. Do you wanna, did you wanna fill in any [00:22:00] blanks or did I get it like spot on?
I’m sure you have a better description.
Jack: Yeah, I mean, pretty spot on. But I would say
that this specifically like skews us towards like progressive values in particular. Um, this isn’t to say that we don’t end up sometimes with like right wing sex workers who have really capitalistic mindsets,
absolutely. They exist. But I think generally speaking, especially for the most marginalized sex workers who do make up the largest percentage of sex workers like globally,
AMD: yeah.
Jack: Uh, it pushes us. Further left, it pushes us towards like progressive values, more understanding and more solidarity with other causes and people who are also oppressed in this in similar ways to us and also in different ways to us.
AMD: Yeah. Yeah. I am, I’m, so, I have your book here, so I keep like glancing down at it. I have your book and I’m just, I just got it in the mail yesterday and I wish that I could have read it before we chatted. Um, [00:23:00] so I don’t know, I might do a follow up, like a little follow up Instagram live with you or something if you’re down, because I’m sure this is just filled with juicy nuggets.
Um, is there something in here? Let me just, I’m gonna kind of like breeze through the chapters. Okay. I already found one that I like and that I’d like to like just for you to touch on a little bit. It’s called Fucking The Enemy chapter two.
Jack: Yes.
AMD: Yeah, that’s a great sentence. Do you wanna just, you just wanna give us like a little teaser of what you’re talking about there?
Jack: Yeah.
Um, so I think there is, there’s this kind of weirdly pervasive idea in certain leftist circles that who you fuck can make you radical, right? That like, if you, if you have the a sex life, which is diverse enough and also restricted enough in terms of their politics, you’re a better person. And we also like do understandably talk a bit about people who [00:24:00] claim to have super radical politics and have really conservative partners.
And I think those are valid criticisms to have. But when it comes to sex workers, we’re often fucking people who are quite literally our political enemies.
AMD: Hmm.
Jack: Uh, sometimes those people are senators, sometimes those people are mps in the uk.
AMD: Right.
Jack: And sometimes they are like very conservative, um, men who are often in positions of power.
I know that I’ve had plenty of clients who are pretty high up bosses, who are orders of magnitude more wealthy than me who
AMD: mm-hmm.
Jack: I’m sure exploit large numbers of workers. And then they come to me to underpay me far less than they can afford for an hour or two of my time and treat me like shit during it.
And if, if we buy into the idea that who you fuck can make you radical, then by the same logic, you can fuck a certain person and become less radical.
AMD: Mm-hmm.
Jack: And yet that’s not happening here, right? Like clients aren’t suddenly becoming better people because they’re sleeping with sex [00:25:00] workers. And sex workers aren’t becoming worse people because we are sleeping with conservatives or whatever, right?
We’re doing this because we need the money and we get the money from people who have it and who is more likely to have it. Like older white men in positions of power who tend to have shit politics.
AMD: Right.
Jack: So, you know, the, the sort of like, the conversation is a bit flipped there and I think it gives us some insight into, I.
In what ways is it bad for, for people to be interacting with, like, people with these awful politics? It’s not the act of sex that like spreads this like political disease,
AMD: Right.
Jack: That’s that’s not what’s doing it. Right? And so when we’re saying like, oh, like who you, who you are fucking like you’re fucking the enemy.
And so you are like awful. I don’t think that’s the case at all. It’s about like intimacy. It’s about who you are choosing to spend time with and why. And the why is so important. Uh, and the way that you are connecting with those people, if you’re saying, this is my partner who’s super [00:26:00] conservative and thinks all these groups of people don’t deserve rights and I love them, that’s concerning because that implies that you care more about the intimacy you have with this person than those marginalized people,
AMD: a hundred percent.
Jack: Versus I’m fucking this guy so I can get some money, and I’m handing that to my community of marginalized people. Right now, we’re in a very different scenario, so it gets to the core of like, let’s actually get into like what sex has to do with this stuff? How it affects, yeah. Our politics and the fact that it doesn’t just rub off on other people through sex.
AMD: Totally.
Jack: Through like your aura.
Yeah. I mean, I’m just thinking now, like of all of like the sex workers that I’ve talked to over the years that have said things like, similar to what you’re saying, like, oh, I’ve, you know, I had sex with men in power and these people in power, especially in the us, are tending to lean toward more towards conservative legislation, even though they’re the ones that are using sex workers services.
Are you?
Mm-hmm.
AMD: Is that something similar that happens in the UK as well? I. Is [00:27:00] that duplicated over there?
Jack: Yeah,
definitely. Like we have members of Parliament who are seeing sex workers and then going off to work and arguing that we should be, you know, criminalized, we should be suppressed in various ways, trying to get rid of our escorting websites.
AMD: Yeah, I lit. I literally like, I like, I can’t make sense of that. Like I know that it happens, but just right now, in this moment I’m like. You’re like, okay, so they use sex worker services, then they go to work and they’re like down with sex workers rights and anything that helps them. So what about themselves?
Uh, are they then not, they’re not advocating for themselves, they’re de advocating for themselves because there’s a reason that they’re choosing services from a sex worker. Like what, what does that confuse you?
Jack: I think it seems like that more because like you are a good person and so you are not in the mindset that they have about this [00:28:00] because the mindset they have is if we criminalize them and we oppress them, there’s always gonna be more desperate people who are willing to sell sex.
So they’ll always be able to access it, but it gets cheaper. The people get more desperate and more willing to be manipulated and to do whatever these men in power ask. Um, and also they have plausible deniability in public because they seem so anti-sex work. People are less likely to think that they would be seeing someone.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, but obviously if you’re not evil, that’s not a thing that you would, would think of doing.
AMD: Right. I guess that’s why it doesn’t make any sense to me. ’cause it is evil and terrible. And, um, and your answer is of course, it’s, it’s. I should know that, you know what I mean? But, um, it’s, it’s helpful ’cause it’s so infuriating.
It’s maddening. And what I’m curious about too is like, you know, what is the current climate like in the UK when it comes to sex worker rights in [00:29:00] general? Um, and what, if any, similarities are you seeing with the global movements like other, in other parts of the world as far as sex workers rights?
Jack: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, globally there’s this push right now to crack down more on sex work.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, in a way that is really frustrating. And a lot of it is that governments are kind of entangled in various ways. So one government proposes a law, others look to them, see how popular it was with the people in their country and go, oh, we would like that. Um, and copy it. So, I mean, right now in the UK we’ve got a couple of things happening, which is the Online Safety Act passed and it restricts escorting websites in a bunch of ways.
Um, and it basically makes it a lot harder for us to advertise. We’re not allowed to be like explicit with our advertising. Um, to kind of a ridiculous extent, um, Adult Work, one of the most like popular escorting websites here has restricted it so that you can’t have [00:30:00] like, suggestive posing in your pictures.
AMD: What does that even mean?
Jack: So
not only do you have to be, you’re not allowed to like show too much skin. You’re not allowed to, like, there’s no nudity whatsoever allowed in your free pictures. Now. Um, but you can’t pose suggestively and what it considers suggestive, like one of the pictures is like this woman in a skirt and a crop top, and she’s like touching her chest at the sides.
Like literally like not even really pushing like her chest together, just touching the sides of it. And they said, that’s too suggestive. You can’t have that as a picture. Okay. Um. So like we’re, we’re at like Facebook rules basically. Like if the picture wouldn’t pass muster on Facebook, it won’t now on an escorting website.
AMD: I mean, I
feel like that would pass on Facebook these days. You know, that sounds like
Jack: depending the
moderator. Yeah.
AMD: Yeah. It sounds really strict. Like, because what if you have your hand on your hip, you know, like, I, is that sugggestive?
Jack: I mean, it, it, yeah. It might be considered so like the, [00:31:00] the standard is ridiculous.
So we’ve got that happening, restricting us.
AMD: Wow.
Jack: And age restricting anything that is more explicit, including like just the text in people’s profiles, talking about what services they offer that’s considered too explicit, so that’s gonna be age gated. Um, and then on top of that, we’ve got, um, members of parliament here trying to, and I don’t wanna make it sound like it’s all of our members of parliament.
It is a few mps
AMD: Okay.
Jack: Uh, pushing the Nordic model now. Sure. And there are two amendments to our police and crime Bill, NC two and NC three.
AMD: Okay.
Jack: Uh, where they are trying to, uh, criminalize the purchase of sex and also to, uh, criminalize escorting websites. Uh, themselves in their entirety, and I don’t think those two amendments are going to pass.
AMD: Okay.
Jack: Um, I think, I mean, we’re doing a lot of like activism currently, including like this month in raising awareness, getting people to contact their mps. [00:32:00] But I think this is like you often see in the US the first attempt to float the idea. So they have like a previous kind of floating the idea. Now this is a more extreme one to get loads of backing from different mps to see you know, who their allies are.
AMD: Mm.
Jack: And then the next time they propose it, they’re gonna really push to get it through, is how I think the trajectory is gonna go.
AMD: I see.
So maybe not pass now, but will potentially like they’ll just keep trying is what you’re essentially saying.
Jack: Yeah, exactly. Okay. And I think that matches up with what’s going on across a lot of Europe.
Um, like France has introduced the Nordic model back in 2016.
AMD: Okay.
Jack: A few other places. Have been kind of trying to mm-hmm. Um, I think is almost like backlash against, um, like Belgium decriminalizing sex work and improving sex workers labor laws, which was a huge win for sex workers.
AMD: Yeah.
That was a huge win.
Yeah.
Jack: Yeah.
AMD: Mm-hmm.
Jack: The rest
of Europe seems to be retaliating in going, well, we are gonna
crack down, like, we’re not gonna allow for that.
AMD: [00:33:00] Right, right. Wow. Yeah. I, I forgot about that. And that’s also seems really petty. Do you really think they’re doing that? They’re like. Fuck you Belgium, watch this. Like to some degree?
Jack: Yeah.
I mean, I think to some extent there is this kind of like appetite to push back and I think that made them realize how much strength the Decrem movement has if it’s left unchecked, basically.
AMD: Mm-hmm.
Jack: If sex workers are allowed to organize and be loud and there’s no like controlled strong opposition, we win.
And so all of these other countries are going, okay, well now we need like really strong controlled opposition.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, yeah.
AMD: So we’re going to take a quick break and we will be right back because I have a follow up question to this topic right back,
We love doing this work, maintaining a platform for sex workers to tell their stories, entertaining and educating the public. If you love our podcast, please consider donating. We are now a [00:34:00] 501(c)(3), so your donations would be considered tax deductible. Go to yaswork.org/donate and easily send us some support to help keep this podcast going.
That’s yaswork.org/donate.
AMD: And we’re back from our little break. Thank you for that.
Um, so my question in follow up to what we’re talking about, like sort of what’s going on in the world, um, the climate in the UK, the climate in other countries, um, you know what, um. What do you think people, especially outside of our communities, people who aren’t sex workers need to understand about the scope of these efforts that are like trying to restrict sex workers and their rights more.
Like what, what should outside people know more about?
Jack: Yeah, I think, I think they should have an awareness of how these different laws are interconnected and they should like [00:35:00] get better at recognizing when something is about to escalate to restricting sex work or when that’s actually the purpose. So when they hear things like this law would protect children, I want them to think to themselves, okay, let me look into that.
Because sometimes it’s gonna be a law that actually does protect kids, but a lot of the time it’s gonna be a law which exists to restrict sex workers with children being used as an excuse.
AMD: Right.
Jack: And to have trigger phrases like that, that make them think about things more, I think would be really helpful because it is really easy for propaganda to spread.
And if you’re not a sex worker who’s like actively talking about this stuff all the time, it’s maybe not gonna be the first thing that comes to mind for you. And I don’t think that makes anyone like bad people or bad allies because they’re not thinking about this stuff.
AMD: Right.
Jack: But we can make improvements.
Um. And having this awareness of the specific like tools that are used against sex workers also allows us to have like a better understanding of what [00:36:00] to oppose and why. So things like facial recognition are used to catch sex workers to stop us from crossing borders. So that’s like a thing to be aware of in terms of hearing about like facial recognition legislation that might be passing near them, even if it’s not specifically targeting sex workers or doesn’t even seem like it would, you know, just having an understanding of these technologies are used on sex workers first and harm us,
AMD: Right.
Jack: Means that they end up more informed about all of these different political issues. Same with age verification online, you know, same with a, a plethora of things . and so having that baseline knowledge and just like educating themselves just to that level means they’re gonna notice the next time an article like comes across their, like, feed on social media and they, you know, go, oh, wait a second.
Like, actually let me look into this one. Um, and once you get in the habit of that, it gets really easy.
AMD: Yeah. I mean, it, it requires critical thinking and like looking things up about subject matter that you don’t know about.
Jack: Yeah. [00:37:00]
AMD: Right. And I feel like here in America, I can speak on, right. ’cause that’s where I’ve lived my whole life, that when it comes to like news about sex workers or their rights or laws or whatever, and if you don’t know much about sex work, they just kind of don’t care really.
And they don’t care to learn more or understand because to them it doesn’t, that doesn’t affect them. Right. And they don’t even know that it probably affects somebody that they’re close to and they don’t even know that who, who that person is a sex worker that’s close to them or their family member or whatever.
Do you, do you, do you feel like it’s kind of the same in the UK?
Jack: Yeah. I think it’s pretty common for people to just be kind of uninterested in learning about sex workers struggles. But at the same time, I do feel like when people are exposed [00:38:00] I, I am often pleasantly surprised at their willingness to consider sex workers issues.
And two, think about like people around them who might be impacted.
AMD: Right.
Jack: Um, so it’s kind of not all doom and gloom as much as it is frustrating the sort of baseline apathy. Yeah. I feel like people can be reached a bit easier than we think.
AMD: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I’ve been loving this, this ongoing argument that the restrictions and laws around sex work will catch up to civilians eventually in various ways. You know, I’m thinking particularly of this case up in the northwest here in America where, um, I, I guess there was some. Street sex work happening, or at least, um, soliciting happening in this one particular area.
And they decided to put up like these barriers on the street to make it like harder for people to get to vehicles that were driving by. And it ended up turning into a [00:39:00] huge mess where like people, like trucks, the delivering stuff couldn’t get through and do what they were supposed to and emergency vehicles then had a more difficult time getting through and it just like threw this entire neighborhood into disarray because they were trying to stop the, the soliciting that they claimed was happening.
Jack: Yeah,
AMD: right. And it just ruined everybody’s life in that area. Wild.
Jack: Yeah. The efforts to restrict people, uh, always end up fucking over everyone.
Um, obviously they fuck over sex workers worse. So some people are like, oh, I’m willing to take a, a little bit of a hit to fuck over sex workers. But the average person who isn’t invested is just pissed off by the barriers.
AMD: So how do you, how do you personally stay grounded and motivated? I mean, because you’re, you’re doing a lot of advocacy and activism work and it, it’s really hard work and it’s, it’s tiring and frustrating, but also [00:40:00] rewarding.
So how do you stay grounded to be able to like, get up and do this again and again and fight back?
Jack: Um, honestly, until fairly recently, I was kind of burning out and not managing it well. Like I was finding it difficult to stay motivated, finding it very difficult to um, sort of keep my eye on like we can make improvements, we can make things better, like getting a bit into that kind of doomer mindset of like, things are just gonna keep getting worse and I don’t really know what to do about it.
Yeah. But um, I am pregnant right now and I am due at the beginning of October and there is something about like, okay, I can’t afford to lose motivation because the world needs to be better for this kid. Like, it just has to be. I can’t sit back and go, oh, things are just gonna get worse, and raise a kid with that mindset.
And I know that I can’t.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: So it’s kind of like forcing me to be like, it is [00:41:00] so public now that I’m a sex worker. Like I can’t take that back. It’s all out online. With my real name. I, you know, have, I’m on lists because I’ve tried to cross the border and, and been
AMD: oh, no,
Jack: um,
held and stuff. So like, there are just, there are various ways in which I am known as a sex worker.
Now. It’s not a thing that I intend to hide from my kid or would be able to, and so I, I need to improve the level of stigma that there is because I don’t want them to have to face the level that there is now.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, and that is. Great motivation to start from. And it also sort of reignites the fire of like, I also want to do this for the other people in my community.
There are people who are so much worse off than me,
AMD: right,
Jack: who are struggling and who like. Can’t do activism because even showing their face might get ’em deported, might get them attacked by their family.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, and I’m in this kind of unique position where, because I’m not in contact with my family, that part already happened where they kind of eggs communicated me in a [00:42:00] very angry that I am a hooker and
AMD: Okay.
Jack: I already, my, my name and stuff is out there and it’s already public, so. You know, I might as well keep going because I don’t want someone else to have to do all that and go through all of those things to get to this point. Yeah. So I’m not gonna stop now, you know?
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: And that helps just kind of that, having that attitude about it.
AMD: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, what is. What is something that you would want the sex worker community to know and understand as a trans person who you’ve experienced, you know, both sides, you’ve experienced your more femme side before discovering, um, your identity, and now you’re, you know, you’ve been transitioning.
Like what do you think is important for sex workers to understand about other sex workers who don’t necessarily identify as, you know, [00:43:00] femme, that, that have different type of identities and, and you know, what the, the atmosphere feels like. Do you know what? Do you know what I’m saying? Like, do you have anything to say to them about that?
Okay.
Jack: I think, I think it’s worth them considering that just because a group is a minority within the movement doesn’t mean they’re not worth consideration in the same way that sex workers overall are a minority in the sort of broader, like, I don’t know, let’s say feminist movement or leftist movement or just in society at large, um, sex workers obviously deserve a seat at the table.
And the same thing applies to trans people within the sex worker community.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um. And just having an understanding that the way we work is not necessarily gonna be the same as them, and that’s okay.
AMD: Mm-hmm.
Jack: And to not be making assumptions about someone just because they are trans or just because, oh, well this, you know, this person is a man, so they must.
Experience sex work like this, or this person is a woman so they must experience [00:44:00] sex work like this.
AMD: Right.
Jack: Actually, like while there are commonalities in how people experience things based on gender and also based on how they’re perceived in terms of experiences of misogyny or trans misogyny for trans women, like there are also experiences we have that just kind of can’t be confined that way.
Sometimes we have a thing happen to us that isn’t super common for our gender.
AMD: Mm-hmm.
Jack: And also the more marginalizations that sort of entwine themselves with each other, um, the more we are likely to face additional issues and not to presume or give advice with the assumption that a trans person has all of the same opportunities or will feel exactly the same way about their sex work to a cis person.
Um, just having that in mind as a baseline and asking rather than assuming I think, is a massive thing and just, you know, being mindful about that proactively with stuff like what language they [00:45:00] use. Like if you wanna have a group of sex workers who are exclusively cis women, then you can sure talk about sex work as if it’s something only cis women do.
But if you do that, don’t expect trans people to wanna be around you because they’re not gonna wanna show up to these events to be kind of spoken over and hear about sex work. Spoken of as if it’s a thing that only women do and specifically only cis women do.
AMD: Right.
Jack: Um, you know, like people just aren’t gonna wanna be there.
And you know, when sex workers who are trans then form their own communities to be separate, you can’t really be mad about that because
AMD: Right.
Jack: The environment isn’t conducive to trans people being present.
AMD: Exactly. Yeah. Thank you. And I do like the, the comment about um, you know, language and how language is used.
Um, in um, you know, our community we tend to use, she her a lot and girls and ladies. I have a whole beef with the word lady. [00:46:00] Um,
Jack: yeah.
AMD: You know, I got mad beef with that word. Um, mostly ’cause it’s rooted in the patriarchy. Um. But anyways, yeah, so I appreciate having a conversation around that because there was, uh, when this podcast was pretty new, um, I had had a trans sex worker write into the show.
I think we’d had about maybe 10 or 15 episodes out, and they had mentioned that, you know. A lot of, everyone, everyone, including myself speaking on the podcast, was using the term girls and she, and you know, ladies and things like that to described sex workers. And um, and that was from that email, I made sure that we, we changed that, that at least I changed that, I changed my language.
So I very specifically use the term stripper dancer worker. Um, and I try to train my other, other hosts that come in and work with us to do the same, but I [00:47:00] can’t control what everyone says. Right?
Jack: Yeah.
AMD: Like
I can only share my perspective and, um. I’ve made several posts on my personal Instagram about it and nothing changes.
So I kind of just stopped yelling about it because I’m like, okay, there’s like bigger fights that are more important, you know? But then at the same time, like always in the back of my mind, I’m like, you know, stop calling me a girl. Please stop calling me a girl. You know? And I know that there’s other people that feel the same way.
Um, obviously because they wrote to me to share that.
Jack: Yeah, absolutely.
AMD: You know, so yeah, I do appreciate this conversation. Um, and actually on one of our episodes, one of our, one of our guests, her name is Riley. She was like probably the only one that stopped herself in mid conversation and said, I notice that I say she and her a lot, but I, I don’t-
I’m not [00:48:00] trying to be exclusive. I understand that there’s a lot of different gender identities in sex work, and I was just really blown away by her awareness in that moment because that was the only time that it ever happened.
Jack: Yeah, and the, and the willingness to self-correct when you notice too, right?
Like I do feel like there are some people who notice they’re doing it, but then go, oh, I’d have to admit to doing something less than ideal to correct it, and I don’t wanna do that. So I guess I’ll just, yeah. I quietly maybe change some of my language and then, you know, not bring it up so that, I mean, it’s amazing when someone can’t acknowledge it.
AMD: Yeah, I agree. Well, to close out, I wanna make sure that we talk about your book, um, because we want people to get your book. So what can you tell us about the book and what is its, you know, why did you write it? What’s its purpose and what do you want people to get out of it?
Jack: Yeah, I, I decided to write it mostly because I, I write a lot [00:49:00] of blog posts on various topics around sex work, and I started doing that because I was just really sick of repeating myself.
I was just like, so tired of explaining myself over and over about the same topics, explaining like what a SWERF is to people or explaining my perspective on like, the idea that someone has to be empowered or they’re a victim when most of us fall somewhere on the spectrum and we’re at one end or the other.
AMD: Yeah.
Jack: Um, you know, like things like that. And after, like it’s, it’s been a pretty long time of me doing that and I, there’s gotta be like a couple hundred articles on my website by this point, and I realized like. Actually, like, let’s try and do something long form here so that I can have a condensed version of this to give someone.
AMD: Yeah. Nice.
Jack: Um, and then I also thought about how, you know, there are, there are plenty of things that I’ve been wanting to write and express that I don’t because I’m concerned about how they’ll be perceived by others. I worry about like the ways that people will [00:50:00] react to them. And I realized like, this is just like another facet of like the general kind of shame around discussing sex work.
Hmm. Like it went from being ashamed of talking about selling sex and not wanting to admit to being a hooker, to getting over that shame and then having this shame about like these subtopics within sex work that I didn’t wanna talk about. I know that they are controversial. I know that they get really negative reactions and I thought like, actually, like I should explore these properly.
I should let myself really think about them. And put them down to paper in a way that is like considered and deserves more than just like a quick blog post. Um, deserves to actually like be in there. And that’s why, you know, there are chapters going into stuff like the general commodification of intimacy, um, going into psychiatry and how like the sort of general like therapy and psychiatric institutions respond to sex workers [00:51:00] and also things like youth liberation and underage sex work, which is a topic that no one really wants to touch with a 10 foot pole because it’s really uncomfortable to talk about. But I’d started doing sex work before I turned 18 and I’m kind of tired of having to like hope people don’t do the math when I talk about how many years I’ve been doing sex work if they know my age and not being able to kind of really get into that facet of my experience or being expected to separate it out as if my life doing sex work after the age of 18 is so fundamentally different from before.
And as if I’m not allowed to talk about myself as like an autonomous person who made choices before that age. Um. And so I thought like, you know, put it into a book at least then someone’s gotta commit the time to actually like considering these thoughts properly. It’s not gonna be just a soundbite that they can like see devoid of context.
Not that people can’t quote me out of context still, but [00:52:00] hopefully it causes them to actually ponder on those issues rather than just get mad over a single sentence.
AMD: Right, right. Yeah. Full context. Yeah. I love that. Well, I’m very, very excited to read this. Um, can you tell people how to find more about you and find out more about this book In closing out?
I.
Jack: Yes. Um, so if you want to find out more about me, my work and stuff in general, um, the places that you can find that are jack violet.com, which has sort of all of my articles and has a section for published work, I. So you can go there, see the stuff that I have published, and also see all of the free articles there because as much as it is nice to help a broke hooker out and buy some of the stuff I’ve written, I also recognize many other people out there, maybe even some of the people listening to this, are also broke sex workers.
And I’m not expecting you guys to spend money so. That’s totally fair. Um, [00:53:00] and other than that, my socials, I think on basically all of them now, I am Mx Jack Parker on Instagram, on Tumblr, on Blue Sky,
AMD: .
MX Jack Parker. Across the board?
Jack: Yes.
AMD: Yes.
Perfect. Thank you so much for being here on the podcast with me today. I’m, I’m just so, I’m so excited to read your book and, um, I probably will like, message you about things that I found or whatnot, and if you’re down to do some sort of follow up, like a little clip on Instagram, let me know.
Um, and yeah, it’s just been so, so great to get to know you and to chat with you today. So thank you so much.
Jack: Yeah, I’m definitely up for that and I had a great time being here too. Thank you for having me on.