YAS Podcast: Elene Lam & Chanelle Gallant #149 Transcript
In this episode of YAS Podcast, host Daisy Ducati, along with co-host AM Davies, engages with guests Elene Lam and Chanelle Gallant to discuss their book ‘Not Your Rescue Project.’ The conversation delves into the problematic aspects of anti-trafficking movements, revealing how these initiatives often harm rather than help sex workers, particularly migrant and racialized workers. Highlighting the intersection of sex work, migration, and racial justice, the discussion uncovers the urgency of addressing the misconceptions behind rescue projects and calls for unified support from the left. The episode also focuses on the organizing efforts of Butterfly, an Asian and migrant sex worker support network, and explores the detrimental impact of criminalization and policing on sex workers. Listeners are encouraged to educate themselves, support migrant sex worker organizations, and challenge the systemic issues within anti-trafficking movements.
*This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors.* *This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors.* Begin transcript after opening credits.
Daisy: Hello everyone. My name is Daisy Ducati. I will be your host today on YAS Podcast, along with AMD.
AM: Hey,
Daisy: thank you. Thank you for being here with us. Before we get into today’s episode, I wanted to remind you that YAS Podcast is [00:02:00] produced by YAS Work, a nonprofit organization dedicated to changing public perception through media.
If you love our podcast, please consider donating donations like yours. Keep our project going. Head to YASWork.Org/Donate are here today with Elene Lamb, the founder of Butterfly, an Asian and migrant sex worker support network. She has been involved in racial justice migrant sex worker movements for over two decades, and is an assistant professor in the school of Social work at York University.
AM: And we also have with us Chanelle. Chanelle is the co-author of Not Your Rescue Project, Migrant Sex Workers Fighting for Justice and an organizer, author and thinker at the intersections of sex work and racial justice movements for over two decades. She’s currently an visiting activist scholar with York University and works to move [00:03:00] money into social movements.
Elene and Chanelle. Hello.
Chanelle: Hi.
Elene: Hi. Thank you so much for, uh, including us, so we are so excited to be here. Same. Thank you for being here with us.
Daisy: I’m really excited today to talk about this book, not Your Rescue Project. It was a really incredible read. And, um, how, how are you feeling today? First of all,
Elene: excited. Like, podcast is not my thing, but I think it’s really great. You know, we can talk about our book and also like have chance to reach your audience so that, um, thank you so much. Yeah.
Chanelle: I’m just gonna say I’m happy to be here. I love the podcast. I think this is a really cool kind of conversation that we get to have with you guys, because often when we’re doing interviews, we’re not doing them with people who have like, direct lived experience of the sex industry.
[00:04:00] So it’s just really cool. Yeah.
Daisy: Yeah. We’re all family here. Um, so first I wanna get into like, what inspired you guys to write this book? Like what is, what is your message here?
Chanelle: My gosh, where should we start?
Elene: So then you want to go,
Chanelle: I mean, Elene and I have been working together since like 2013/2014.
So a long time. This book comes out of like a pretty long collaboration between us, um, to. Build a, like a sex workers movement, which is more intersectional with migrant justice and racial justice.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: And, um, that has looked for us, like I’ve worked with Elene for years in, in Toronto on the, the, uh, migrant sex worker project.
And then to support her founding of Butterfly, the Asian and Migrant Sex Worker Support Network, um, which then led to [00:05:00] many other kinds of projects. Um, both in Canada and the US and then the book came about. We had no intention of writing a book. A book is really intense. The book is like a long, multi-year, exhausting, humongous commitment.
AM: Wow.
Chanelle: But it got offered to us, like, um, our very beloved friend in comrade, Harsha Walia, uh, reached out to us to connect us to a publisher called Haymarket. And they were looking for a work, uh, like a piece that would address questions around, uh, sex work and labor and migration. Um, and Harsha recommended that they speak to us and we were like, should we write a book?
Um, and then we, then we did.
Daisy: I think that’s amazing. And I love Haymarket by the way, right?
Elene: Yeah. And I think the other reason is because when we do the activism, so we are so honored, so like our migrant sex worker movement actually is the intersect of many movement. We got so much like activists, you know, from [00:06:00] migrant justice movement, racial justice movement.
And particularly in last decade, we can see like more and more people support the abolitionist movement, you know, anti-free anti-policing. But then what we found actually many people suppose they should stand by our side, right? They should support us. Why they are on the opposite and support the anti-trafficking movement.
They think that this is like support sex worker rights they think would be bringing social justice, but it’s not. Right? Even people anti-policing, when they like see the, um, like, uh, anti-trafficking rate of police, they still think this is a good thing. So that’s why I think this is also the other per reason we see the urgency so that we really want to uncover what is like, um, behind the rescue, uh, what is the problem of all this like rescuing project.
So that’s why, um, we were on this book, really want to call the people, you know, like, um, the particular people from the left, you know, please come back. So we need you to stand, um, with us so that like, you should not be like [00:07:00] standing with our enemy, you know? Yeah,
Daisy: yeah, for sure. That like right now, this is a serious, seriously present issue.
Um. And like we, we shouldn’t be talking about the criminalization of sex work without talking about the role that it plays in reinforcing a racial hierarchy in the US specifically. Um, and people talk about immigrant sex work, but don’t really talk about like the resistance that they are leaving out the organizations that do the work.
Um, so let’s talk about like Butterfly and Red Canary Song and Parlor Outreach Project and what those organizations do.
Elene: So maybe I tell you a little bit about my background. So as Chanelle said, I moved to, uh, Canada in 2013, 14, but before that, I already have done the, uh, sex worker organizing in Asia. So, and particularly like Asian sex worker movement is very grassroots.
A lot of amazing [00:08:00] organizing. Like for example, Cambodian sex worker, even they don’t have a office. They use a boat as the office. But they organized to stop like the very problematic, uh, HIV like, uh, uh, drug test on the body and like how empower in Thailand they are organized, the sex worker using creative way to educate the plot play and push back a lot of harmful policy.
It was my honor, actually learn and grow in those community. So that’s why when I moved to Canada, so that’s, it’s great there is like so many sex worker organizing in US and Canada, but what we find, because the way of organizing like migrant sex worker, particular Asian sex worker were, were not able to participate.
And then the anti-trafficking movement or government is using this- like a missing voice in the movement. Say, okay, you see like white, like sex work is not being trafficked. Then the Asian like, uh, uh, woman, they must be brainwashed. They are so naive that they’re being trafficked and they use it to target.[00:09:00]
And so that’s, uh, the world is more so when I, uh, start working in Canada and then I did outreach and then connect with some sex worker, they say, okay, they were from the sex work organization I work with. And then they say, why don’t we organize a organization here we can support each other? Because at that time in Canada, there is constitution challenge.
The government say they will not like raid and arrest the sex worker, but migrant sex worker, particular Asian, is always being arrested, detained and deported. And also a lots of murder, a lots of violence. So that is some of the worker. Um, that is, uh, from Asia that we have connected and also some new worker we connect.
So that is how we start, uh, Butterfly with some also supporter. And so, uh, but because like, um, there is like different city particularly people work indoor and some work in apartment and so, um, our experience organized in Canada, so we also use it to [00:10:00] support like the development of MPOP in Seattle so that we hope, you know, continues to support this grassroots organizing because the way of organized is a bit different, you know, with mainstream sex worker movement, not only focus on identity politics, it’s like more focused on collective power, you know, like that building the community and that kind of, um, uh, organizing is a bit different and we organize like with food, you know, a lot of creativity. So this is how, uh, Butterfly style and then how butterfly continues support, um, different, uh, migrants sex worker project over the place. Yeah. Yeah.
Daisy: It’s, it’s really interesting how a lot of the anti-trafficking rhetoric tends to like, remove agency from the workers.
Elene: Yes.
Daisy: And like, it positions workers as either a victim, uh, and unable to make their own decisions or it a criminal basically. [00:11:00]
Elene: Yes.
Daisy: Um, and so I think it, it is very important to also talk about like the organizing that’s going on and all of that.
Elene: Yeah,
and one of the example is like how they think, okay, you don’t speak English, how you can consent, right?
Of course people don’t speak English, they speak other language, they can consent, right? They use different way of consent, so, but then they use their language barrier as the way, take away the voice, take away the power, so. What the organizing Butterfly do. For example, we organize like many worker, you know, participate in city meeting to lobby the people.
I am 60 years old. I know what I’m doing. So like I’m not traffic victim. This is my work. And I think this is very important to have this organizing to push back the harmful narrative. And in our book we also document that, and I think this is very important. This is the book. It’s just my honor work with Chanelle.
We have a lots of dialogue. We write about the history, we write about our analysis, but in the book we also include [00:12:00] a lot of the, uh, workers, particular member of Butterfly. They have been like very inspiring and fighting for the rights. And so that we also want to share not the story of being, how they being oppressed, but then how the, um, how they organize and fights back and yeah.
I love your question. Thank you. Yeah.
Daisy: Yeah. One of the things that I. Personally really loved about the book was that you included direct stories from actual sex workers and
Elene: mm-hmm
Daisy: People got to tell their own stories in their own words, and that’s so often missed in discussions about sex work and trafficking.
And I, I think it’s amazing to like, hear those stories directly.
Chanelle: Yeah. It’s actually, what’s so crazy, it’s so wild, is that this is the first book that actually is rooted in the stories, the struggles, the resistance, the political analysis of immigrants in the sex industry. [00:13:00] That’s, that’s ridiculous.
AM: That is, that’s wild that it took that long that nobody else thought of this.
Chanelle: Well, I mean, I think it’s because of such intense criminalization.
AM: Right. Yeah.
Chanelle: Like to nerd out on the history a bit. The, you know, when you think about like federal immigration prohibitions in the United States, the first and oldest one is against Chinese sex workers. The pay Act, it’s 150 years old. So it’s like not a coincidence that we haven’t, there’s been how, you know, 150 years of talking about immigrants in the sex industry, but not immigrants in the sex industry, like being able to, um, be recognized and acknowledged and having their perspectives like taken seriously and treated with dignity and respect.
And that’s because of suppression. It’s not because, you know, I think like Elaine just makes the point. It’s not because they don’t have the voice. It’s not because there isn’t actually a real diversity of political [00:14:00] perspectives. And experiences we’re talking. When we say immigrants in the sex industry, we’re talking about immigrants from literally everywhere in the whole world.
That’s actually an extremely diverse experience. We’re talking about immigrants who come from different class backgrounds. We’re talking about immigrants who might have come, uh, from a refugee situation, asylum seekers, but we’re also talking about professional class people who work in the sex industry because their credentials aren’t recognized in North America or in Europe.
Like there’s like 50-year-old former accountants and government officials in the massage parlor. You might not know that, but that’s. Who’s also in there, like it is a real diversity, um, of people who, for whom there’s just a lot of people for a lot of immigrants, for whom the sex industry is a better option.
A lot of different people from folks who like, don’t wanna work in restaurants, don’t, don’t, can’t physically work in the farms and distribution centers and meat processing centers to like Yeah. People who are [00:15:00] seeking political safety, um, because of conflict in their countries and actually come from middle class backgrounds.
They’re all in there.
Daisy: Yeah. And for a lot of immigrants, especially if they don’t have the right paperwork mm-hmm. It can be very difficult to find adequate work once they get to a new country. And the options are very limited and often those options can be dangerous.
Elene: Yeah.
Daisy: Yeah.
Elene: Yeah. And I think, yeah, the o other is the assumption like sex industry is exploitative, you know, people are being very oppressed.
Yeah. But many of the worker actually share, like compared with other industries. So sex work actually sometimes have more autonomy, sometimes actually have like better income. And as Chanel said, is sometimes it’s at less demanding for the body that, that, you know, like many of the migrant, they may be already 50, 60 even.
Like some of them may be have. Uh, disability, but some people also may have like family duty, you know, like I’ll go to school so that, that, [00:16:00] but then, um, um, the option, you know, people choose is, is always being seen, you know, as oppression, but instead of give more power for the people that the anti-trafficking movement, just take away the option to, to push them in like more one vulnerable situation.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that’s why I think the book, we have like very diverse story, right? So like, people assume, you know, as Janelle said, people like, sometime because of forced migration, you know, they, they migrate to other places with whatever reason. And, and then when they move here, when they like back then it’s less anti-trafficking initiative.
People can have more easy to migrate to, to. Like Canada, so that they have more agency, they can choose the place to work, but when their anti-trafficking movement come, their arrest being deported. So that like, what is the point? You’re helping the people by put them in prison. You help the people by deport them, so it’s not make sense.
Right. But that’s why we won’t really want to show them.
AM: Yes. I find it interesting too that like even people who are [00:17:00] like, I’m, I’m left-leaning, I’m, I vote democratically. And, but there’s, there’s still like in line with the right when it comes to, um, immigrant sex work and you know, when we’re talking about like how you had mentioned Elaine, the, the Asian women, how they’re look, they, they perceive them to be helpless and they don’t understand and that’s why they’re in this situation.
I think that like I, I see personally like. Both sides like really have that same mentality of like, oh well they must, they have to be saved and that, and they do conflate sex trafficking with sex work as well. And I just find that really interesting that like the people who are lean more left and who are on that other side, like still haven’t picked up on that.
Have you noticed that as well?
Elene: I think that is how racism classism play out, right? The intersect. I think this is some Chanel and I have a lot of discussion and also put in the book, right? So like, and then, uh, [00:18:00] why the migrant sex worker being left behind in so many movement? Like for example, people in sex worker movement, they support sex worker and then they say, I’m not exploited.
You see the Asian woman charge $20. They must be like, um. You know, traffic and they, they don’t have place to stay. They stay in massage par so that actually they’re being controlled. Right? But they need to understand like they got $20, but then when they work in factory, they only only get $8, actually is the better income.
So that is the hierarchy of racism. Just reflect in the sex industry, right? But then the assumption, the racism. So we think that, okay, the Asian woman is sexually non-active, you know, they are more vulnerable. So that why they are here, they must be trafficked. Right? And the other thing is how they see, you know, the community support as, you know, the exploitation.
So like, you know, people. Um, you give you a ride to go everywhere because you don’t have the car. And some people prefer to stay in the place because they don’t need to pay extra rent. Right. But when we have like, [00:19:00] um, do not have like this understanding of complexity, people live and then they will come with the assumption.
A lot of assumption actually is come from like very classes, very like racist idea. But at the same time we also see like, for example, anti-Asian racism movement. So the anti-Asian racism, they say, okay, so um, we are anti-Asian racism. But then when they see, you know, Asian massage power target. They don’t say anything, even like the paycheck, say the first law ban the Asian particular Chinese is actually, they banned the sex worker.
They don’t talk anything about that, right? They talk about head tax. They talk about this sex worker often being left behind because they are being seen as like, you know, your lower class. You know, this is not reflect our, our, our value, but then they are also do not include them in their movement. So, so that’s why I would really want to remind the people that is the complexity of the isu, that you need to understand the complexity of the story.[00:20:00]
For you, this may be the oppression is your experience, but for other people, actually it’s the way people get agency, get power, get resources, right? People work in massage power, not only money. They have the social network, they have the client help them to fill in the form, you know, to navigate all different systems.
Give them the right. And then that is something we really hope people can understand. Yeah. Chanel, I dunno whether you have like anything to add. Yeah. Um. I,
Chanelle: yeah, I mean, yeah, we had, we, we do talk about it in the book a bunch. We have a chapter that’s specifically about the left’s relationship to migrants in the sex industry because it has historically been racist and classist.
It’s also anti-worker. It’s like, why don’t you get behind the organizing of people who are working in a labor sector and trying to make it better? Um, it’s, it’s extremely sexist. This is a labor sector, which is majority women. I mean, I think that’s part of the problem is that, you know, migrant sex workers [00:21:00] are, who are largely racialized, live at the intersection of like six different oppressions.
And that means getting left out by a lot of people who don’t wanna claim them for one reason or another. Mm-hmm. Right. A labor movement that doesn’t want to welcome in criminalized, racialized workers, right? Mm-hmm. Um. A disability rights movement that doesn’t want to welcome in sex workers who are using the sex industry to survive and support themselves in a society that is really willing to throw out disabled and chronically ill people.
Um, and so, yeah, a lot of why we wrote this book was to kind of help people understand what it looks like to actually really embrace and get behind migrant sex workers. What is that politic? And yeah, that’s what we’re, that’s what we’re hoping to do with it.
Daisy: Yeah. And Elaine, you brought up an interesting point that [00:22:00] like the rhetoric around anti-trafficking legislation often positions.
Things that, uh, that sex workers are doing as to build community or to protect themselves as evidence of exploitation. Do you wanna talk a little bit more about that?
Elene: Yes. I think few thing maybe that is can talk more like how anti-trafficking movement developed a hundred years ago is actually used to target sex worker.
Used to target as migrant, used to target racialized. It’s already the develop of sex worker movement development. Like the development of anti-trafficking movement and development of anti-trafficking law policy discourse is already not decide to help the people, but criminalize the people to control the sexuality, body and agency of the people.
So how it’s play out is we know that like in 90. 60, 70 sex workers are organized. More people support, you know, this is my body. I have the, my agency need to respect, right? So [00:23:00] that is really changing how people see sex work. But what we find the anti child thinking movement is so, so horrible. I don’t want time say they are smart, right?
But they take the language, they use the vulnerability of the migrant sex worker, you know, or like more marginalized sex worker to, to frame their human trafficking using those racist, sexist idea to, to impose the idea they are being trafficked. One of the example is like many worker, they cannot speak English, right?
So they may need someone, so Apple also include the story, so they cannot speak English. So there is a worker, so she’s getting older, her body cannot work anymore, but she have English skills, she have the client connection so that like them. The worker to ask, okay, you retired, whether you can help me answer the phone, you know, like you can help us to navigate how to travel.
And she did it actually help her to screen the client. And, and, but then she was being arrest in anti-trafficking rape because the assumption you help other [00:24:00] person, you facilitate sex work is. Not only like illegal, but they use the trafficking, anti-trafficking lens, right? Like, and also like they, you text, you share some profit, that worker actually willing to pay someone to, you know, help their transportation provide place or answer the phone, right?
So, and then at the end they, they cannot find any element of exploitation, but then they use anti-trafficking as a excuse to like impose all this criminal charge of people. The worker being investigate deported and the people help her is being criminalized. Not only she put in prison and her family member because she don’t have credit card, use the credit card to pay and all this support system.
Now we always say build a mutual care support system. And then actually the, the people already have been doing,
Daisy: yeah. And
Elene: being criminalized. So that’s why we really, really hope like people can. Understand how problematic of the trafficking movement, the language, and [00:25:00] then, and also how it’s linked with, you know, the criminalization of sex work, but also linked with, you know, the policing.
Because in many city not using criminal law, they also use anti-trafficking narrative to shut down the Asian massage parlor. My, our book, talk about Toronto, talk about the time of new market. Again, used the assumption of the Asian women are trafficked, but they actually don’t care about them. Right. If you care about them, you will not take away the right.
An agency. But they, the purpose, they use it to cover the real intention, actually just want to get rid of them. You know, like that is the, the real purpose. So we hope the audience like would understand that. Yeah.
Daisy: Yeah. Absolutely.
The Queer Sex Workers Initiative for Refugees in Kenya is doing incredible work despite the hurdles they experience in a country where being queer or a sex worker is illegal, they pay rent to maintain a shelter for their community members. [00:26:00] One where they provide food and teach skills like creating crafts and jewelry.
Their shelter and work is a safe haven for Kenyan refugees that identify as queer and or a sex worker. Visit QSWIR.Org to learn more and to donate to their mission.
Daisy: We should also talk about how anti-trafficking legislation and enforcement is used to coerce people into identifying as being trafficked.
Mm. And the way those laws are written and enforced, if you don’t identify as someone being trafficked, you face imprisonment, deportation, et cetera. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that?
Elene: Yeah. Chanel, we want to talk about, I think maybe particular us is like they even have built in the system to make people identify as traffic.
Yeah.
Chanelle: Okay. The first thing I wanna say is that in particular, I wanna say a little bit about how the mainstream narratives of, of human trafficking have always been racist. The racism is [00:27:00] actually baked into the entire framing of the problem, which positions the problem as these like scary gangs of traffickers, right?
A a hundred, 150 years ago, the problem was framed as white slavery, um, which they then just swapped out one term, modernized it, and now refer to it as modern slavery. The racism hasn’t changed. They just did a modernization of it in order to apply contemporary disguise to the racism, but it has always been the same.
It’s the idea that North America, essentially, that like European and and European colony countries are at threat. From sexual violence of a racialized other, that’s the baseline underneath it all. If you go down to the roots of it and look at the assumptions that inform our ideas about human trafficking down in the roots, what you’ll find is the idea that there are these [00:28:00] gangs of beastly foreigners surging through our cities, bringing slavery.
Um, or there’s an anti-blackness that it’s like, it’s, it’s uh, you know, the code is pimp. They use the word pimp as a code to imply scary black men for in your neighborhoods who threaten your children, who could be anywhere, when in fact the reality is the real sources of violence and danger and harm come entirely from the elites.
They actually come from the border being closed, not the border being open from the fact that people can’t migrate when they need to for safety. Right? Mm-hmm. From intimate partner, violence in the home, patriarchal violence against women from the brutal exploitation of immigrant labor. All of that stuff we’re supposed to not pay attention to.
And instead, we’re supposed to focus on this boogeyman of the human trafficker. The racism is [00:29:00] baked right in to all of the stories you hear about human trafficking, whether they say it or not. They’ll sometimes just be like, they will just identify the, um, they’ll identify the country of origin of people who they’ve charged with human trafficking.
It’s black and brown people because they don’t wanna go after the actual sources of violence against women and violence against workers, which is like a lack of labor rights, criminalization, a lack of immigration rights. You can’t migrate safely. So what do you have to do? You have to hire someone. You have to work with a smuggler to get you across the border.
For many people, working with a smuggler is actually a positive experience. They need that help. They hire someone to give it to them, but. Because of criminalization, it gets more and more dangerous, more and more sketchy people are doing it. And of course you have no rights if something goes wrong.
AM: Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: Right. Yep. And that’s the actual source of danger. And everywhere we’re seeing the borders tightening, you get more violence against people who are trying to, who need to cross those borders. That’s [00:30:00] the source of violence. The illegality of the migration is a source of violence. The fact that you can underpay an immigrant worker, you can pay them less than minimum wage.
You can expose them to incredibly dangerous and exploitative working conditions like where workers lose limbs are exposed to toxic, uh, pesticides and fumes. You know, even, even, even good case scenario, like Elaine was talking about a situation where they were trying to close down all of the massage parlors in this wealthy white town outside of Toronto and.
They were like, don’t worry. Yeah. I mean, yes, people will lose their jobs, but they’ll be able to co come work at our local care facility and take care of our seniors.
AM: Is that what they want?
Chanelle: Yes. That’s what they want. They don’t want people in the massage parlors who are more in control, negotiating for tips, negotiating their own shifts.
They want them in the, you know, in those care facilities. Right. Working for way less [00:31:00] money. Mm-hmm. And working on the books where their movement, like their, um, uh, their, uh, visa is like their location is monitored versus working under the table. Uh, at a massage parlor.
AM: Totally. I get that. And my question was mostly geared towards the, the workers.
Like, that’s not what the workers want, you know? Oh, yeah. It’s, and it’s the system deciding for people what’s best for them, as if the people aren’t self-aware that Yeah. You’re, that the people are somehow like childlike or something to be protected. Yeah. Which is why the title of your book is, is so perfect because mm-hmm.
Yeah. It, it just says everything right there. Like no one, we’re not, no one’s trying to be rescued by you. Yeah. Yeah.
Daisy: It always boils down to power and control and yes, anytime people have any sort of agency that they want to take it away. [00:32:00] Yep.
Elene: Yeah.
And then I think our book also called like the anti-trafficking industry, right? So that you can see, you know, like the, the government particular politician with police and also like the nonprofit organization, many of them is the anti-sex work organization, so that they, how they come together to impose like the anti-sex work agenda, but also in the process they earn so much money.
I always like to call them out like Canadians. Center to end Human trafficking is a ver like a Canadian version of like Polaris project. So they have the hotline, $14 million to run the hotline so that like people get so much pay, you know, and at the same time they frame it, protect the people, but actually it’s the surveillance.
So when you see why government give this funding, it’s not only provide the service, but actually’s collect the data, impose the surveillance, and but then with the name of human trafficking so that they all these people can benefit. Now US and Canada, we [00:33:00] see more and more police come to do the anti-trafficking training.
Many of them also start the NGO so that they got so much funding themself and, and then who, and then at the end, how less, you know, the people can get. You know, really benefit, it’s actually often more harmful. Right? So that like how you protect someone by taking away them from their work and they make you rely on you.
So one of the example is now because of anti-policing, you know, people criticize, you know, police, uh, anti-trafficking rate have a lots of harm. So they suggest that like, um, the police, when they come in, the anti-trafficking investigation, they come with the police. And not only police officer, but also social worker, that the social worker can help the worker, right?
One of the example is that we have a worker sleeping in the early morning, the police broke the door and she do not wearing any clothes. She was being handcrafted all the money type of phone being taken away, and she’s not allowed to wear any [00:34:00] clothes until she answered the question from the police. And so, but what actually happened is.
Then the, the after she speak and then the social worker come in say, no worries, so let me help you. So we have $10 gift card and this is the phone. She took away her smartphone and she do not know how to use this like stupid Nokia phone anymore. Right. So like that new creative vulnerability. She don’t have the place to live.
She don’t have the place to work. And so, so, and, and then the fear you introduced to her life because you took her phone, you took her tablet, all the contact. They don’t know whether police will come in anymore, if Undocument, they may be arrest, you know, sent to immigration. Even people with document, they also afraid they don’t know when they will come in, how they will harass them and also maybe they will be arrested or their friends or family being arrested.
Right. And also how they may expose their identity or all the thing is very like [00:35:00] harmful in the name of protection. And with involving like the NGO anti-trafficking, like, like, um, industry social worker, they make the violence be less visible actually is like, the surveillance from this like party is like even huge, right?
Yeah.
Daisy: Yeah. That’s, that’s a horribly traumatic experience to have to go through and like that, that, who is that helping? You know? Yeah,
Elene: yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cops.
Daisy: Yeah,
Chanelle: cops, cops. ’cause they take all the money, they get to seize all the money, uh, in a massage parlor. That’s true. Everything that people think the traffickers are doing is actually what the police are doing.
They come in with guns, they can point them at people, they can hold them hostage, and it, it is. Legal for them to seize all everyone’s wages. Like people are just like, oh my God, they’re being held captive and they’re having to turn their money over to a human trafficker. That’s literally exactly what cops do.
Yeah. They can hold you captive and they can [00:36:00] take all the money because that is considered proceeds of organized crime or whatever, but also, even if they don’t do it formally, they can just steal with impunity. Mm-hmm. Who’s gonna stop them? Right. Cops can also just, they steal workers’ jewelry, they steal their phones, like they can do whatever they want.
They sexually harass ’em, but you know, get their contact information and sexual harass workers after a raid. The problem really is the policing, and that’s what we really wanted people to understand. In particular, workers like in particular sex workers who distinguish themselves from trafficking victims.
And like to be like, well, you know, I have agency, I have autonomy. I’m not like those trafficking victims. And really actually reinforcing the ideology of, of human trafficking when they do that rather than pushing back against it and challenging that the framing of human trafficking versus looking at oppressed workers who are either, you know, um, experiencing criminalization, [00:37:00] um, actually really does a lot of harm.
And I think it’s like, one of the things that I really hope listeners of this podcast get is like, I’d really like, um, folks who are supportive of sex workers to understand what it looks like to support people who are viewed as human trafficking victims as well.
Elene: Yeah. Yes. And another example, like, um, one of the story we include is me.
Like she was being taken away $10,000. This was what she earned in a year, and then claim to protect her. She’s no way to get back her money. We have also other worker, like her mom left the jewelry, her mom passed away. This is not only the value, but it’s also the memory. You know, she, she cannot get it back.
And so more, many, many story. And then also, like in us officially, the police can take away your fund money as the funding. So that’s why they often like to raise sex worker, you know, all the money cease in the investigation. Um, they can take. Take away. And, and then [00:38:00] so, so that is the, the, the, the way how they act.
Who is exploit who, right. Like how the law enforcement, government, um, exploiting the, the, the worker. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: And where does it go when they take all that stuff? Where does it even go? Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. Yep,
Chanelle: yep. Yeah. It’s a state authorized armed robbery.
Daisy: Yeah. Yep. That’s not to mention, I don’t know if this is specifically a US thing, but there are many states where it’s perfectly legal for undercover officers to receive services before a raid and use that as evidence.
Yeah. Yep.
Chanelle: I know
Daisy: Gross. I know
AM: that. I know that, you know, but, but when I hear it, I’m like, it just makes no sense to me. It’s mind flowing. Yeah. Yeah. It’s painful.
Chanelle: They’re being paid an hourly while they do that.
AM: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Tax
Chanelle: dollars.
Daisy: I wanted to ask, so we’ve been seeing ICE arresting and taking away migrant sex [00:39:00] workers, and then they’re just falling off the grid and never being heard from again.
Um, you made a post recently that went viral and. Do you think that post made an impact besides, besides raising awareness?
Chanelle: I hope so. Yeah. I mean, it was a story that, um, me and Kate Zen wrote for Truth Out, and Kate is the co-founder of Red Canary Song in New York City. And it was based on an investigation we did into, um, the fact that there had been a lot of coverage of the way that, um, under the Trump, Trump administration, ICE enforcement has really ramped up and, but it’s also really ramped up.
It’s like cruelty. It’s very like, it’s a, there’s very much like a spectacle of cruelty happening where
Daisy: Yes,
Chanelle: they want people to see immigrants being hunted by state agent.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: Right. But what we hadn’t seen like months [00:40:00] into this was a single mention of sex workers. And if there’s anything me and Kate know, it’s that sex workers are definitely at increased risk whenever there’s like more immigration enforcement. But not only that, what people were missing from the story by not including sex workers was like nobody really was talking about the fact that all of the enforcement tactics that we’re seeing used against immigrants more broadly, most of those started in the sex industry.
Literally an immigration prohibition started against sex workers. Mm-hmm. You can trace like, but then the, the tactics of surveillance, the corporate partners like Palantir, right? Palantir are these like super demons and the national human trafficking hotline in the US has been working with them since 2012.
They’re old buds. All of these like creepy techno bros, these like that are, um, [00:41:00] introducing mass surveillance and facilitating, um, the work site raid that we’re seeing. They already have longstanding relationships with, uh, anti-trafficking organizations that serve as their, um, community partners in the criminalization of sex workers.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: That’s what human trafficking organizations do, right? They’re there to collaborate with the state, they’re there to collaborate with law enforcement, cops, immigration, border control, because cops and border control can’t be everywhere. But an anti-trafficking organization can be their eyes and ears on the ground, um, and by disguising themselves.
Right. So people think they’re doing something good when they call one of these hotlines, or they call, um, you know, they report in suspected sex trafficking and what they’re actually doing is sicking the state on someone who is really trying to stay off the radar and just like make a living. Mm-hmm. Um, so that’s why we wrote it.
And I think [00:42:00] it did change things because I was very surprised to see it go-that story goes as viral as it did because it, it was a story that we’d been telling for years. Like, it was definitely not the first time we, we talked about this, me or Kate. Yeah. But for the first time people were like, oh shit, that’s really bad.
Like when we’re like, yeah. A raid, an immigrant, like a, a human trafficking investigation in a massage parlor is a form of terror.
Daisy: Hmm mm-hmm.
Chanelle: But people can believe that now that they’ve watched ice agents sprinting across parking lot and tackling someone’s mom separating her from her child, or like sobbing child and dragging them into a van, now people are like, oh yeah, that sounds like it’s a form of punishment.
We’re like, yes, it was when it was an anti-trafficking investigation too. It’s the same thing.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: So I do think that it massively [00:43:00] sensitized people to the fact that immigration enforcement in the sex industry is state violence.
Daisy: Yes.
Chanelle: And I don’t think that people were considering that before. I do think that really changed.
I’ve never seen that level of interest in the story about what happens to immigrants in the sex industry. That’s op that’s done by the state to them. Yeah.
Daisy: Yeah.
Totally. I it’s, and it’s. Great that people are finally paying attention, but it’s horrible that it’s taken all this to get that attention.
Chanelle: Yeah.
I’ll take it.
It’s true.
Yeah.
Daisy: Yeah, yeah. It’s such a present issue right now. Um, let’s talk a little bit more about the intersection of race with immigration status and how different races can be treated differently through this anti-trafficking movement.
Chanelle: Yeah.
Daisy: Chanelle, do you wanna,
Chanelle: Elene, do you wanna say anything?
Elene: Start, I think, no, I think you can, you can talk about it. Yeah,
Chanelle: I’ll start. Okay. [00:44:00] What I wanna say here is that throughout this conversation, we’ve been talking about the way that immigrants in the sex industry are viewed as victims in need of protection, but like, actually that’s not quite it, because that’s not true if you’re a Black immigrant.
It’s actually that there’s a very specific type of anti-Asian racism being mobilized here, which positions a, this is like a centuries old racist idea that positions Asian women as like helpless and docile and subservient and therefore not capable of the kind of like intelligence and agency and power and resistance that both Elene and I know to actually be true.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: Um, but the, but the other piece of that story is that the whole idea of a criminal, the whole idea of criminalization, that there’s these like bad people who we need to get off the streets and hold in captivity and protect everyone from, that’s actually comes out of [00:45:00] anti-blackness.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: This like historical idea in America.
That there are kind of like inherently bad people, bad scary people, dangerous, inherently dangerous and violent. That’s the opposite of what we’re hearing about Asian women, right?
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: Um, but the two sort of work in concert to reinforce each other so that the, the, like the scary criminal narrative can be drawn on.
As soon as they decide the immigrant sex worker isn’t a victim, then they’re like, oh, well now we’ve got like a dangerous criminal. You see what I mean?
AM: Yeah.
Chanelle: And I really learned that from Elaine. I’ve watched that, I’ve learned that from working with Elaine, where she’s like, watch how they make the shift in one meeting.
Mm-hmm. You’ll see someone go from like, oh, the, like sad victims who need the police investigation to, like, they’re a danger to national security.
Daisy: Yep.
Chanelle: And you can see that happen inside of half an hour, inside of one sentence.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: Where people are deciding how they’re [00:46:00] gonna treat an immigrant in the sex industry, and which form of control and punishment are they gonna
draw on.
Elene: And I think that’s why we have a term women though, right? So they, they play that they have the role of victim, but at the same time, they put the role that they are also the criminal. So that like they’re illegal so that they can claim to use whatever identity, you know, to, to, to trust. And I think I want to talk a little bit about how the racist idea they impose to migrant and how they treat differently.
Because I think in the book we also talk, um, with the activist, you know, from Montreal. So Montreal have a lots of trans migrant sex worker from Nighting America because they’re trans, that they do not frame that as a poor, like traffic victim because like they have the like brown and Black body. So what they do is they see that they as the criminal, they are the harassment, the danger on the streets, right?
So they are not being charged, not investigate as the victim of human trafficking. Like, because in Canada there is the law, if you’re a sex worker, you [00:47:00] stop the traffic that you will be arrest of like criminal law. If you har like board, like, like stop the traffic. So they don’t use the trafficking law to charge them.
They really use the traffic law that they stand on the street.
Chanelle: Like literally like traffic.
Elene: Traffic.
AM: Oh! Like “driving” traffic?.
Elene: Traffic. They use this law to, against the people, right? So that like we see how the racism is play out, you know, in, in the process and, and then how to put different label that, that they can use against those people, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Chanelle: Did you use the word “viminal”? Is that the word you used? Elene? Like victim?
Elene: Yes. We have al victim criminal, yes, victim and
also criminal. So that we have done, uh, um, because at the beginning, so we also include her story. Sue is the worker had been working here, so they like that she have lots of agency autonomy, but she was being arrested and deported.
After that she moved to Dubai, you know, uk. She had been working in different country. Actually. She [00:48:00] had better working condition in Canada, but because. She has been, um, saying in Canada for five years when she being arrested, she even do not allow to pack her stuff and she cannot get the bail because the, the judge say, I need to protect your safety so that to keep you safe, in order to keep you in the detention center.
And then she was deported. They no way she can pack her belonging. So that’s why we, um, you know, she has a rice cooker. So we took the picture to ask where the other worker want to use it because she really want to share with other worker. And then, so we have the exhibition in the art center is called s to show her stuff.
She’s the real person. So that how she’s being harmed, um, by the anti-trafficking movement so that in that, um, space. So we have a exhibition called “Viminal” and I think this term really reflect, you know, like victim and criminal at the same time. Yeah.
Daisy: That I’ve never heard that term before. That’s interesting.
AM: [00:49:00] Yeah.
I think that’s a Did you, did you coin that term, Elene?
Did you?
Elene: So, no, we work with the artists and then like, okay, so like, yeah.
AM: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s useful. Yeah. I, I guess what I can’t wrap my head around is that the judge saying like, in order to protect you, we have to keep you in prison. Mm-hmm.
Elene: Yes. Because like one or the client is a criminal is dangerous or the woman is the potential trafficker. So that’s in order to protect you, I just keep, keep you in the prison.
AM: Sure.
Yeah. Something I wanted to share, um, because I’ve done, you know, a grant applications, and in one of them in particular, we did a grant.
We did, um, peer review and, um, we had to review, um, an NGO that was, um, applying for, you know, there was all kinds of anti-sex trafficking rhetoric in their application. And as part of the application, they state how much money, you know, like [00:50:00] that you have to talk about like, where have you gotten funding from before?
And they received millions. Millions of dollars.
Chanelle: Yeah. Yeah. And
AM: then the, the sex worker organizations who are grassroots and who, you know, do support migrants and, and sex workers of all kinds are like scrounging for scraps.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Elene: Yep.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Elene: Yeah. Yeah. And, and one of the examples so that when we have, like, share our work, so one of the workers, she is working in the anti-trafficking organization, they say the organization got the funding, the ED got three times increase of her salary.
And then so they got the funding to help the Traffick victim is a black sex worker to put her is far away in a shelter and she got $10. I thought it’s $10 gift card per week. Per day. But actually she say no, she got $10 gift card per week and she’s not able to work anymore. So, and she need to pray. She cannot drink, you know, like all this thing.
But then the ED got so much money to travel around and, and a lots of money. Right. [00:51:00] So, and, and when you see the, the the dollar side, you feel like how much funding? If the money actually go to the worker’s hand, how they can improve the quality of life, you know, go. And then this is also why we write the book because we also see more and more sex worker, uh, organization and sex worker also take on the anti-trafficking discourse.
I think we have a lot of dialogue with Chanelle and particular sometime racialized, um, sex worker also, uh, an indigenous sex worker also take on the anti-trafficking narrative because this is the only way they can have the experience being recognized. Right? And that is also the way many sex worker organization can, cannot get funding.
So they then they, they may take trafficking funding and then the vulnerability of sex worker, the violence, the complexity of the, the workplace, uh, thing, everything frame as human trafficking. That is giving, um, anti-trafficking movement more [00:52:00] resources, more, more power, right? So that’s, we also want to like, share.
We really respect how people identify themself. But then like this narrative is, is keep promoting, expanding to, to, to, to, um, too many people they may not able or have opportunity to listen the other side of story or like the critical like, um, uh, uh, message. You know, like how and why an anti-trafficking movement is, is developed.
You are surprised why governments spend so much money of anti trafficking movement. Why so many people jump in who are benefits. That’s why we call it the not anti-trafficking industry is because they are all benefit, not the worker. Right? Yeah.
AM: Right, right. Wow.
Daisy: It’s
fascinating the, the amount of money that’s being funneled into anti-trafficking movements.
And it seems like, uh, there’s [00:53:00] also like this incentive to support that movement once a, once a sex worker wants out of the industry. I’ve noticed this in porn as well. Um, there are all these anti-porn. Uh
Elene: mm-hmm.
Daisy: Groups that will seek out porn, performers that want to retire or maybe didn’t have a great time in the industry.
Elene: Mm-hmm.
Daisy: And they’ll pay them to speak out against the industry.
Elene: Mm-hmm.
Daisy: And to keep up this narrative that the industry is evil.
Elene: Mm-hmm.
Daisy: Because their personal experience was negative.
AM: Right. I’ve seen that too. Yeah.
Chanelle: That’s interesting. I haven’t heard that with like, adult performers, but we’ve definitely seen that with, uh, people in other parts of the sex industry.
Um, I think actually at the top of this conversation, we were supposed to talk about like why people might identify with human trafficking and sex trafficking labels, and I’m like, I don’t think we did that, but
AM: we can close out with that if you want.
Chanelle: Yeah.
I mean, to come back back to that, there’s a lot of reasons.
There are a [00:54:00] lot of reasons for safety and financial reasons. Protection from discrimination, protection from criminalization, access to the only services. Sometimes you can get there’s, um, yeah, there, there’s a huge incentive. To identifying with the human trafficking and sex trafficking label. And like we say in the book, we think that survivors should identify with whatever label works best for them.
And our issue is not with people who have survived any type of violence or exploitation or coercion or harm because they did not create these systems. They’re just trying to make it within these systems that were not built for them.
AM: Right.
Chanelle: Um, and instead what we wanna do is like point the, again, we’re being distracted from the real problem, which is like, why are there no services?
Often there is no support for people who want to transition out of the sex industry because people transition out of their work all the time. Um, but because [00:55:00] of the reason that they need support and can’t just like pick another job like. Like, you know, my sister went from working in food services to like working in health services and did not need a exit program for that because of the stigma and criminalization.
The only reason
Daisy: mm-hmm.
Chanelle: Somebody would need that kind of support generally. So it’s like not actually dealing with the reason they need the support instead being like, well, we’ll give you these services on condition that you accept this highly stigmatizing, um, label that you also often are willing to be a subject of our research.
Very often they have to participate in research in some way. Also that we count you as a human trafficking victim, which we’re then gonna use to fundraise off of.
AM: Oh my God.
Chanelle: Because that’s what goes into all the impact reports. That’s what’s in all the fundraising. Like, why does our organization need your millions and millions of dollars?
Because look at all of the human trafficking and sex trafficking victims that we have been helping, when in fact [00:56:00] it’s like they might have provided some resources and some support that were the only supports available to someone in the sex industry.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: It’s actually pretty similar to, um, the anti-choice movement, where like crisis pregnancy centers are kind of like pretend social service agencies, and they’re, they pretend that they’re, they’re like, are you pregnant?
And, and in crisis, come talk to us.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: And they act like they’re gonna offer you real medical services, but what they’re there to do is actually use stigma and pressure to convince someone not to have an abortion. It’s very similar. With anti-trafficking organizations that function as these like fake social service organizations that actually wanna use you for their research, use you in their data, and then pressure you out of the sex industry and into lower paid work.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: But sometimes they’re the ones, they the only ones with any money, even like a little scraps of money or little bits of service, a little bit of crisis support. They might be the only ones with like where you can get like mental health counseling
Daisy: mm-hmm.
Chanelle: In less [00:57:00] than six months or ever. And if that’s the only place you can get it is through one of these organizations, then yeah.
People are going to, or like emergency housing or um, a visa if you’re an immigrant. Caught working in the sex industry and you’re subject to potentially charges or deportation, and your lawyer’s like, well, why don’t we get you this human trafficking visa? Some people are like, well, that’s great. There’s this special visa
Daisy: mm-hmm.
Chanelle: For victims of human trafficking. Yeah. Well, the problem with that is you have to give evidence against someone. You have to label someone as your human trafficker. You can’t just be like, yeah, I was the victim of human trafficking. You have to say, this person did it.
AM: Mm.
Elene: And and I think that like, for example, like a lots of conversion program in us, particularly New York.
Right. So like, I will also include that story so that people need to identify as traffick victim to go to the conversion program, do yoga, cannot work anymore, and then in order to avoid, to put in prison or like to be deported. Right. So that’s like, the industry is huge. [00:58:00] Like, like, like shipping. You know, people how you need to represent yourself and, and even none of the individual data go to against one person. But what we see, for example, Ontario, because many organizations so eager to get anti-trafficking funding to justify. So this is, uh, a hub of human trafficking. So that at the end you talk about funding, when the Ontario government, Ontario in Canada cut the funding for housing, cut the funding for like, um, uh, violence against Women organization legal aid, they got $300 million for anti trafficking.
AM: Oh my
Elene: like 300 million. Many of them go to the anti-sex work organization to run the program. Many funding, go to police, you know, to civilians and arrest the worker, right? So that, but I think this is also important. I love to talk about the resistance. Despite all this label, you know, all this oppression, but very important.
And the migrant sex worker. It’s organized to speak out. So Butterfly in last few years at doing a lots and lots [00:59:00] of work, the transformation is different level individually and how to build a community and also speak out, right collectively. So we have a lot of creative resistance. So, you know, sometime rally is quite dangerous, you know, like intimidating for many workers.
So we have like actually how we do the protest actually will put the massage back in the Chinatown during Chinatown Festival to do the massage and call for the support. And 300 worker went to City Hall of Toronto when the city of Toronto tried to shut down the massage club. 300 people,
AM: that’s great.
Elene: Participate in the city hall. But despite that, they have voices of. Being dismissed. Even 300 worker went to city Hall. They don’t still care about them. That’s why we also need a lots of allies to be educated by the worker and then to speak with the worker, to advocate with them. So, and I think this is very, very important.
And then we hope that to continues to do the organizing. This is the book we say is not stay in [01:00:00] on the bookshelf. It’s beautiful color because we want it to be standout, not the dark red. Color is beautiful, yellow, full of energy that you will use the book.
AM: Yes.
Elene: The book is, is the movement. The book is helped to build a movement.
You can learn about the story of the worker, you can learn about the harm of anti-trafficking movement instead of being an allies. How you can include migrants sex worker in your movement. How you can have different creative initiative support the worker to organize and fight for their rights. So that, I hope, you know, this is, um, our like f.
I think this book is really like the, uh, a, a great, great celebration of like our friendship. You know, I worked with Chanelle for so long, great honor to include a lot of beautiful, powerful story from the worker, but that’s mm-hmm. We really hope not only read it and say it, but it’s read it and how to transform yourself to be the activist and how to bring [01:01:00] the change in different space.
Yeah.
AM: Amazing. Yeah. So
Daisy: for our individual listeners out there that want to get out and support this movement and want to do what they can to help, like what, what, what are some specific actions do you think people could take to be of help?
Elene: Yeah, I think one of the things Chanelle, maybe you can add more. One of the things Chanel keep doing, she is what do you want?
What do you need? Right. So that like, I think why we think it’s important is nothing about us, without us. That centering the migrant sex worker listen to their voice and also aware all the risks will bring to the community. Right. Drawing more attention sometime is helpful, but sometime it’s very harmful.
Right? So that, that listen to the worker, how to support the worker. They can self-organize and I think this is a extremely important part. How you use your resources connection, your power, your money to bring in. So one of the thing we really want is Butterfly now is really, really have very [01:02:00] limited funding.
We really want to fundraise. You know, to donate even $1 is huge for us because it’s not only support our direct work to do outreach, you support the worker court line, but also like showing your support of the movement. So there is a lot of things you can do. Maybe Chanelle, you can also add more. Yeah.
Chanelle: Well, first of all, what’s the Butterfly website where people can make a donation?
Elaine? Yes.
Elene: So, uh, is the butterflysw.org. So if you think it’s okay, maybe I can put the link, um, with the podcast, then the people can click to to the link.
AM: Definitely, yes, definitely we’ll do that. Yeah.
Chanelle: Yeah. I mean, I think, I hope people read the book because we’ve got a whole chapter on how people can support migrant sex workers.
I think the first thing to do is actually get educated.
AM: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: Just learn some things about migrant sex workers, far from migrant sex workers. You can’t help if you don’t really understand what the problem is. And a lot of what we’re trying to do in the book is help people understand this is the problem, this is what we mean.
That’s why like, read the stories in there that are firsthand accounts and find out [01:03:00] what people are actually going through. Because once you understand the problem, you know the right place to bring the solution, which is why Yeah. When I started working with Elaine, I would often just ask like, what is it you need?
What, what? Because I don’t know. You know, we have to be humble to understand. One of the things I’ve really learned from working with migrant sex workers is often we do not want to raise awareness.
AM: Hmm.
Chanelle: That’s not a good across the board. Not everybody needs attention and awareness. That’s not necessarily going to build the strength and power it can actually expose people.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: So I give that just as one small example of how you learn what a community needs before you can figure out what’s my entry point to how I can support. But you, but you don’t wanna just, you know, wade in there assuming that you know what people need because Yeah. You, um,
AM: that’s the problem in the first
place.
That’s, it’s
Chanelle: the problem in the first place. Yeah. So don’t, don’t replicate that.
AM: Yeah. Right. Yep. Right.
Daisy: That makes perfect sense. [01:04:00] Um, so before we close out today, is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners? Either of you?
Elene: I think thank you so much. Like particularly in this very difficult time.
Sometime we feel very frustrated. We have a lots of fear, you know, and sometime the state is very powerful because they make us have so much fear and also they make us fight against each other, right? So, and then like, uh, for migrant, they say, I’m not, uh, bad migrant. I’m not a criminal. I should not be deported.
So we need to know, like criminal is being constructed. People use the criminal or make people become like criminalized, right? So like the good migrant, bad migrant narrative is so problematic because that is justified, you know, to continues to the people. No one is illegal, is very important. So that’s why I think how we continues to build a solidarity, keep learning from each other and then like how to support each other in particular in this difficult time. In [01:05:00] Chinese we have the word cro- Crisis. Crisis mean dangerous and opportunity. So we are facing very dangerous situation. We don’t let the state take away our power. Do not like only give us the fear, but how to transform this opportunity to build a community, to have the courage so difficult time actually make us see the oppression more visible that was there, has been there, but now it’s more visible.
So to encourage more people to action together.
Daisy: Mm-hmm.
Chanelle: Yeah. And I just wanna thank you both. I think the work that you’re doing is just so thoughtful and fun. And, um,
AM: thank you.
Chanelle: I love that you’re like creating both like a cultural space and a political space and just like working to bring people together and break down those divisions between different parts of the sex industry and people within the sex industry and people outside of the sex industry and like build that community and connection and understanding this is exactly the kind [01:06:00] of stuff we need.
This is exactly the stuff that should be getting that $300 million in funding. Um, and may it rain down on you.
AM: Yes, please.
Chanelle: May, may it rain down on anyone on this fall. Yeah. And, and for the money blessing.
AM: Yeah.
Daisy: Yes.
If anyone wants to give us $3 million,
AM: $300 million,
Daisy: 300 million, a billion
dollars, please feel free to give us all of your money.
AM: Yes, yes.
Daisy: Um, thank you so much for everything. Thank you for writing this book and for getting this message out there and for speaking with us today, and thank you so much. Um, where can, where can our listeners find more of you and what you’re working on?
AM: Instagram websites?
Chanelle: Yes. Well, you can go to the Butterfly website, which Elaine just mentioned and will be linked in the show notes.
Uh, you can find me at chanellegallant.com and I, and on Instagram, I think it’s chanelle_galante, something like that. Okay. Uh, and [01:07:00] I am, you know, I’m a lady about town. I’m doing things. Um, so that’s where you can find whatever I’m working on next.
AM: Awesome.
Daisy: Cool. Mm-hmm.
Elene: Thank you so much.
Daisy: Thank, thank you.
Chanelle: Yeah. Thank you guys.
AM: Thank you taller listeners for tuning in. We’ll see you next time.