YAS Podcast: BPPP #148 Transcript
In this episode of YAS Podcast, host AM Davies and a sex worker coalition discuss the importance of activism among sex workers, especially in the face of human rights abuses. Featuring guests from the New Jersey Red Umbrella Alliance (NJ RUA) and Best Practices Policy Project (B Triple P), the episode delves into sex worker coalitions’ involvement with the United Nations through the Universal Periodic Review (UPR). The conversation highlights the hardships faced by sex workers, the impact of the U.S. on global sex work policy, and the crucial role of community support and financial backing for ongoing advocacy. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to become more involved and support sex workers’ rights through donations, engagement, and spreading awareness.
*This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors.* *This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors.* Begin transcript after opening credits.
N’Jaila: I really hope that, uh, those that are sex workers who are not activists, um, this is the call to action. Like we don’t, we don’t have a lot of time left to sit on our laurels. So at this point in the game, if you’re the United States, we all have to fight because if you see groups losing their human rights, it’s only a matter of time before it’s yours.
Greetings and welcome to YAS Podcast, formerly known as Yes, a Stripper Podcast. This is our podcast, all of ours, a podcast for all sex workers. In this podcast, we will discuss the ins and outs, ups and downs of our lives and experiences as sex workers. I am your host, Daisy Ducati. I am your hauxprah GiGi Holliday.
I’m your stripper queen from the North Onyx. I’m AM Davies, and this is YAS Podcast.
We love [00:01:00] doing this work, maintaining a platform for sex workers to tell their stories, entertaining and educating the public. If you love our podcast, please consider donating. We are now a 501(c)(3), so your donations would be considered tax deductible. Go to YASWork.Org/Donate and easily send us some support to help keep this podcast going.
That’s YASWork.Org/Donate.
AM: It’s another episode of YAS Podcast and I’m your host AM Davies today for this episode. And I actually have a group of people in the room with me today. We have four different people and this is the first time that I’ve gone that I’ve done a recording with this many people at once.
So very excited. We’re actually talking to a sex worker coalition today. And so I’m just gonna have each of you introduce yourselves. Please say your name and your pronouns in whatever order you’d like. And so let’s get our audience acquainted with [00:02:00] you. Hello.
N’Jaila: Hi. I’m so happy to be here. Um, been a fan of Yes, a Stripper for a while. Um, my name is N’Jaila Rhee and I am the executive director of New Jersey Red Umbrella Alliance. A proud member of the Sex Worker Rights Coalition and uh, you know, thanks for having me.
AM: Thank you for being here. Who’s next?
PJ: I’ll go. I’ll go next. I’m PJ. I am the co-executive director of one of the coalition members, which is the Best Practices Policy Project.
Also B Triple P, just to be shorter and in terms of my pronouns, I can do she her, they them or whore,
whatever you like.
AM: Okay. Love that. I love that. Beyonce, do you wanna go next?
Let’s [00:03:00] unmute.
Beyonce: . I am Beyonce Karungi and I work with Best Practices Project. as the, uh, the HIV and SR- HR focal person. I’m a puta. And I am a proud sex worker and I’m happy to be part of this podcast.
Thank you.
AM: Thank you.
And one more.
Erika: Hi, I am Takia. I’m a co-director for Best Practices Policies Project, also known as B Triple P.
Um, we work proudly with the sex workers community, um, and my pronouns are she, her.
N’Jaila: , I think I forgot my pronouns are also she her
AM: perfect
Beyonce: Mine. Are she her Also.
AM: Lovely. Thank you so much and thank you for all of you for being here. It’s, you know, coordinating so many different schedules is such a challenge and, and it was just so easy, um, with this group.
So I, [00:04:00] and I’ve been so much looking forward to this conversation. I had, um, few months ago, seen a webinar of yours where you were talking about the UPR, which we’re gonna go, going to get into talking about the work that you do with the UN, which I think is really important and I, I don’t hear enough people talking ab like, I wanted this information to get out to more people and very specifically to the sex worker community so they can understand like the very important work that you’re all doing.
So we can have like a nice full conversation about that. So would anyone like to, um, sort of fill in our audience, like who, what each group is like, what, what you do, like a synopsis on, um, each of your, uh, groups that you have created and maintained?
PJ: Well, I will jump in first, uh, since we are one of the groups that have been [00:05:00] in this process at the United Nations right since the very beginning. And, uh, we B Triple P Best Practices, we are a group that we are the grassroots, but we are also interested in regional national policy and international global.
AM: Mm-hmm.
PJ: So we make connections between, uh, who we are as organizers and, uh, sex worker rights advocates and trends, rights advocates, and every realm of policy that we find useful. We are not precious about it. Whatever works. And it also is very empowering for our communities to be in spaces that, uh, we’ve maybe heard about but thought that we were never allowed, such as the United Nations or the World Health Organization.
So since 2010, I mean, we’ve always had [00:06:00] uh, human rights focus at best practices. But since 2010, we’ve been engaging in a process which is called, it’s very wonky, but it’s called the Universal Periodic Review of the Human Rights Record of the United States, which gives the world the opportunity to assess how the United States is going in terms of human rights.
So, since 2010, which was the very first opportunity to do that in Geneva, we’ve been involved with partner groups like the Sexual Rights Initiative. We couldn’t have done that without them.. But, uh, in addition to all that work where just like every other sex worker rights group in the United States, we provide support for people in court. We do mutual aid. I have my co-director here who does a lot of the mutual aid work and everything else that every other group does because we have to.
AM: Mm-hmm.
PJ: So that’s a bit more about our background and how we got into this.
AM: Thank you.[00:07:00]
N’Jaila, do you wanna Oh,
N’Jaila: of course. Yeah. Uh, I am from NJ RUA or New Jersey Red Umbrella Alliance, and we were, uh, invited to do this really great, important work by Best Practices. And, uh, it’s been very, it’s been a long road, but it’s been very fulfilling. Uh, it’s not always easy, uh, but we have been able to talk to hundreds of sex workers and document, uh, what life is like for, for them on the day-to-day and how, um, the United States impacts their human rights and how easy, um, the criminalization that the United States is so used to inflicting on everyone. Um, it really affects people, even those that [00:08:00] don’t live in the United States.
AM: Right. Yeah, I’d really like to get into that too. Exactly what you mean by that. Once we get going more what, what that means for people outside of the United, how people are affected by what happens in the United States, even if they’re not in the United States.
I’d really love to Yeah. Sort of dissect that. Um, and before we get there though, I’d like to hear Beyonce and Erika’s take as well on the work that it’s, you do your own summary and your own take on, on what you’ve been up to.
Beyonce: Yeah. Uh, basically for me, at Best Practices. Uh, the work that I do is, um, I do outreaches. Um, for example, I move around when there are like events. I give out our IC materials on the cars and the information, you know, let people know about our work. Those interested can, you know, yeah, they can, [00:09:00] they take the cards if they don’t, you know, I mean, some people, if they don’t like you, don’t force them.
And also sometimes I do engagements with different organizations. Uh, like we have a collective, it’s a trans, like led, um, Latino immigration groups. So I go there because I’m an immigrant. So we are connected in another way of things. Like, um, for example, if they like, um, they need a service and I, like, there’s something that I can provide with them, I go there and tell them, Hey, there’s this group.
Can we partner? You know, and such like that. But also in the HIV background, I help at Callen-Lorde. I hope people fight HIV stigma. Yeah. I think, yeah, that’s basically, that’s my work. Yeah. Thank you.
AM: Thank you.
Erika: Hmm. Well, for me, um, it’s very personal. Um, living in DC being trans and doing sex work, [00:10:00] it was a lot of harassments. . A lot of harassments from police officers, um, people on the streets. Um, also. , A lot of discrimination being African American as well. Um, so the type of work we do, we, we reach out to those communities where there are a lot of those stipulations that’s happening to people and they have nowhere to turn or they don’t know where to turn to.
We reach out to those communities and let them know, Hey, we are here for you. Um, with our mutual aid program, we assist with, shortcomings like far as people who’s having trouble paying a bill or who don’t have money to provide transportation to medical appointments or get food or to attend like therapy sessions or so forth.
Um, we are linked [00:11:00] with. Um, a group called Lyme Council and we refer that we refer our clients to the Lyme Council, , who is therapy for the sex workers community. So we do a lot of, um, sex work based work and HIV work to the communities that are often being neglected, turned down and shut out.
AM: Right. Well, it’s really incredible work that you’re all doing. And altogether, collectively. Um, and so important. And, um, you know, the, I’m really interested in hearing more about the UPR, you called it the Universal
N’Jaila: Periodic Review.
AM: The Universal Periodic Review. Can you educate our audience? ’cause like, I’ve only been hearing about that more recently.
I’ve, I’ve, and I’ve been a sex [00:12:00] worker since 2002, and I, and I’ve been doing like, activist advocacy work since like, probably 2016. And I’m just like, I don’t know, maybe I’m just not paying attention, but I, I’ve not heard about it. And so I, I would love to be educated myself in more detail. And for our audience too, who may not have heard about it and the significance of it and, and how your work correlates with it.
PJ: Um, I hope it’s okay if I give a little bit more infinite information about that and everybody should just jump in because yeah, we’re talking about this all the time and that’s how we organize. But, uh, you know, basically the uni, the United Nations loves its bureaucracy.
You know, there’s little, uh, measures that you can engage with to get your message out. So, uh, and a lot of that information is, it’s, it’s not that you weren’t paying attention AM
AM: ok
PJ: It [00:13:00] was that this information, just like every other piece of information about Wrights work is kept from us, right? Mm-hmm.
So you, and, and then people become the brokers of that information and we’re beholden to them. So it’s just a case of like digging around and getting this information out. But there are many mechanisms at the u the UN that you can engage with, such as in the, in the New York City area, there’s the commission on the status of women that’s been going on since, uh, the 1990s.
AM: Okay.
PJ: And, uh, FYI are still a hotbed of SWERFS and TERFS. Right. Anti-sex work folks and anti-trans folks. But we still go and we still do. And then there’s, uh, mechanisms on HIV and on health. But the UPR or Universal Periodic Review is special because it allows states such as United States, but there would be other countries that have been [00:14:00] reluctant to sign on to UN treaties or agreements. So they try to get out of being accountable by just not signing onto anything. And the United States has a very poor track record on signing onto treaties and global agreements. But under the Universal Periodic Review, it doesn’t matter because you are subject to all the human rights mechanisms and all the human rights rules that are generally accepted.
So you kind of can’t get out of it. That’s, that’s why we love it. And it’s a relatively new mechanism or new thing. It started happening in around 2010, I believe. Don’t quote me on that, but you know, that was roughly when it started to happen. We were involved in the very first UPR that happened every five years.
And how did we get involved? Uh, I was doing some work globally. Speaking to other right space [00:15:00] groups for a consultancy, and I met a group called Labris from Pakistan, and they were telling me when we were talking about this new thing, the UPR, the Universal Periodic Review, I felt like a chump because
AM: mm-hmm.
PJ: I had never heard of it.
Right. And they were like, no, no, no, it’s totally new. And they said that they were going to use it because the government, their government at the time did not acknowledge them as rights holders or their issues as being valid in any way, or even their identities as being acceptable within that country.
So I said to myself, you know what? That really sounds like the United States for sex workers and trans people. So we actually learned from a fellow community group Labris, uh, which is, uh, essentially an LGBT with emphasis on the L group in Kyrgyzstan. So that’s how it happens. You can get information from other organizations like [00:16:00] yourself.
So that’s what it is. That’s why it’s a bit obscure because they make it obscure.
AM: Mm-hmm.
PJ: And we need to figure out how does this work for us and why does this work for us?
AM: Okay.
PJ: But to make it real for the folks out there in podcast land, uh, in the very first session of the UPR, we wrote a report, Desiree Alliance and Best Practices together we wrote a report and, uh, consulted with a lot of groups around the nation and someone gave us $250 to write this report. That was SRI. We were like, yeah, money to write a report, right? And so then SRI gave myself and Darby Hickey the opportunity to go to Geneva. This had never happened before. They also gave us a per diem, which was life changing.
And at that session, uh, Darby Hickey spoke to every country possible and said, we would love it [00:17:00] if you would make a recommendation to the United States to defend the rights of sex workers. And on the very last day, I mean, I spoke to some countries too, but Darby really spoke to a lot of countries. Darby spoke to the country of Uruguay, and the representative said, you know what?
We’ll make a recommendation. And the next day they got up and they made a recommendation, which is called Recommendation 86, which is the first and only global recommendation to the United States to defend the rights of sex workers and trans people together.
AM: Okay.
PJ: There have been some other recommendations just about trans folks, but that is the only recommendation that mentions sex work and the US government accepted it in full.
AM: And when was that?
PJ: That was in 2010 that that happened.
AM: Okay.
PJ: And in 2011, the Obama administration accepted there’s a process of, you know, hundreds of recommendations are made, but does the country under review [00:18:00] accept them or not? Right?
AM: Mm-hmm.
PJ: Like
we did a lot of advocacy in the District of Columbia in DC.
And spoke to the State Department and, you know, raised up the issue of what sex worker rights are. So at the end of the day, the Obama administration accepted recommendation 86 in full and without reservation, they committed to it.
So that’s sort of how this can happen. And then we’ve used recommendation 86 for years to knock on doors.
AM: Sure.
PJ: And be like, you said you were gonna protect us, or Yeah. When’s that gonna happen?
Right. Yeah. So can someone fill us in on like, what, yeah. So that was in 2011. How does that pertain to or help us today?
Or does that make a difference today?
N’Jaila: Oh, well, uh, I know we’ve done [00:19:00] things like, um. When the State Department was, uh, seeking out consultants on human rights, we were able to, um, as coalition advocate based on recommendation 86 to say, Hey, when you are talking about sex workers, are you only talking about us as criminals or are you also going to recognize that sex workers are human beings that can be victimized?
So, um, we did several sessions of, of that and, um. That was a, a, a good way that we could use, we used recommendation to 86 for advocacy. Um, also just in talking to people on the grassroots level, we could just say, you know, uh, sex workers are very vocal about our rights. Here are some actions that [00:20:00] we’ve done.
We are organized and we’re very serious about obtaining this human rights that every human being should have. So I think, um, while a lot of people might not understand the mechanisms of the United Nations, they’re still, um, very foundational to, um, advocacy work within the United States.
AM: Yeah. And then going back, so the United Nations, they’re, they’re really focused on advocacy work within the United States.
Um, that’s what you just said, right? I just wanna make sure I’m, it’s landing for me correctly.
N’Jaila: Well, I mean the United Nations, they’re, um, concerned about like global human rights.
AM: Sure, sure.
N’Jaila: But, um, because the United States has such a reach, it’s very hard to speak about global human rights without discussing the United States.
AM: Okay. Which kind of circles back to that thing you said earlier that I was [00:21:00] curious about. Would you agree that that’s connected at this point?
N’Jaila: Yes.
AM: Okay.
N’Jaila: So, um, the United States, um, because of, you know, they, a lot of the soft power of the United States was through aid and, um, uh, establishing global policy.
So they had things like the, um, global, uh, gag rule where you basically couldn’t allot funds if it was going towards um decriminalizing sex work. Uh, the United States did a lot of controlling of narratives because they controlled so much of, uh, you know, aids basically.
AM: Okay.
N’Jaila: That has rapidly changed very recently.
We
AM: Right.
N’Jaila: We will see how that is going to unfold on the world stage. Yeah. [00:22:00] Uh, but for a very, very long time. What the United States said had to go because so many countries were dependent on, um, not just aid, but also access to research, access to, um, resources that the United States would hoard.
AM: And is that with, along with like all of the funding that has been cut off, has that type of also those resources and information also been cut off as a result?
N’Jaila: Um, unfortunately, uh, when it comes to things like HIV AIDS, yes. Mm-hmm. Um, so there was a, a very instrumental block of funding that a lot of, um, HIV AIDS organizations internationally depended on. And that has been cut. It was part of usaid, but also I, I believe it was called PEPFAR. Um, I, [00:23:00] I’m trying to remember what the acronym stood for, and it’s just tap danced right outta my brain.
Mm-hmm. But that was for many people, especially in the global south, essential funding to help combat HIV AIDS.
AM: Yeah.
N’Jaila: And unfortunately, the United States has, um, completely defunded that, so.
AM: Right.
And Beyonce are, are you outside of the states? I don’t wanna say where you are. I’m not trying to find your location, but are you working outside or inside of the United States?
Beyonce: I am working inside of the United States. Okay. Mm.
AM: Okay.
Mm. Because you had mentioned that you have also been doing, um, work with HIV, so Yes. How does, what N’Jaila is talking about, sort of how has that impacted the work that you’ve been doing and what types of changes have you [00:24:00] seen or ways that you’ve been trying to work around the changes?
Beyonce: So basically what I’ve seen and the groups that I’ve worked with, um, it has been hard. We’ve seen things like, um, like they have funded, HIV, the, like the funding freeze has impacted, um, you know, the service providers to lay off workers because they don’t have money. Uh, like enough, there isn’t enough money also to provide, um, like more drugs actually.
And in social things like lubricants, condoms, like the new, because for me, I’ve been working mostly in the New York state. Uh, we are seeing those things running out. Um, but also like they’re targeting also health workers, like service providers that are working with trans, you know, because this, I think these new political climate is targeting trans people.
We have seen, um, like the insurances are being cut off and stuff like that. So like trans people cannot [00:25:00] do surgeries or they’re kind of trying to do those things to avoid surgeries for trans people, for example. Um, you know, not providing enough money for homeowners and, you know, and many things like that.
But also other groups, their, their funding has been canceled. There is a group here in New Jersey called, Transformation in Action. The acronym is Project T. So their project was canceled because they were getting funding. They, they were being given funding from CDC, uh, through N-G-C-R-I, and it was HIV.
So I was going there. And when I went there, one of the things that I told them when I was starting to work with them, I really didn’t work. But when they invited me to go there, I, this suggestion I gave is like, they have to begin, if they are relating to HIV and to bring up this project, I said, people should talk, should share, you should give people empowerment to share about their stories.
For example, were you born [00:26:00] with HIV? How did you contract HIV, for example For me, I always say I’m a sex worker. You know, I was raped by a client, so I told them people need to share so that they get empowered, but also it brings up stories. That, uh, you know, if you want to get more funding the way how these people getting numbers, you know, those are the things that USAID wants, you know, because I, we had an experience back home in Uganda.
This is what I told them, but then later on, their project was canceled. Yeah. So, because I was also supposed to go there and give my story, they, they were, so the person who came, who was advising the project, said they should call the name of that thing that I was suggesting, translation, so that you go and to share a story or something like that.
But the project was canceled. So that’s how like, my work has been impacted. Yeah. And later when we went to do this, the, the, the outreach in New York at Collectivo, because I wanted to get lubes. We got lubes and [00:27:00] condoms, and then when you’re doing an outreaches, you’re supposed to give the whole package.
So we found out that, you know, the lubes were missing. So you see. Those are the things that are impacting the HIV prevention. Yeah. Thank you.
AM: I see. So they only sent, did they sent you condoms, but not lube? Is that what you’re saying? Yeah. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Um,
PJ: I’ve got something to add AM.
AM: mm-hmm.
PJ: Uh, you know, we kind of finished in 20 10, 20 11 with that big success of US sex workers being recognized by the and, and trans people together by, uh, the United, you know, our United Nations process. But we’ve stayed at it. So what we are doing this year, and Beyonce, a lot of the outreach that Beyonce’s referring to was also, uh, lined up with this, our, our outreach to the collective and whatnot in Jackson Heights, uh, was about collecting information for another report.[00:28:00]
Uh, I think our best one yet. In fact, we made two that we submitted to the United Nations in April. At the beginning of April for the current review process of the United States. So Beyonce was very much in charge of, uh, our process of taking the themes and writing that report, but also all across the country with groups like the Trans Income Project or um, uh, you know, our colleagues in Atlanta, like all across the United States.
We, uh, all did outreach to our communities. We went out, of course we had a survey, but we also chatted to folks and got information and put it into the report. We tried to make it much more accessible this time. Not UN language, but mm-hmm. Much more, much easier to read. And also
Beyonce: plain language.
PJ: Also plain language.
We also have been working with 11 artists. [00:29:00] To illustrate the themes of the report, and some of that art is out. And N’Jaila and I are fairly recently back from our first trip to Geneva to bring attention to the outcomes of the reports. I, I would like to shout out one of our groups that we worked with, Sweet Texas, uh, representatives of Sweet, made us the most beautiful one pager, which is like, you have to summarize your full report into one page
AM: Mm.
PJ: So that the officials will look at it. Uh, Sweet laid it out so beautifully, and we got a lot of interest because it looked so good. So, yeah. Anyway, we, we’ve, we’ve been keeping going with this, and Beyonce has been very central in the development of the information as well.
AM: That’s awesome. I love that art was being used to illustrate a point.
That’s so beautiful.
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Beyonce: Miss, uh, let me come in as- mam PJ Thank you. Let me come in and talk about as a puta who led the process of the report. So here, [00:30:00] this is what we did. So we came up as a group of us, like we were about 11 of us and the researchers. So we came up. Um, but one of the first things we did, because for us sex workers, we, we say, we always say that nothing about us without us.
So we first developed a survey and then we go to different people. We went when we’re doing the outreaches, I remember the first one we did with Mam PJ. We went to Collective one. We gave those, the people who had come on, uh, TDOR, we gave them, for example, they were doing the, the survey, you know, and then also we also went to Exotica.
So we provided different people and people were doing the survey. So, um, after seeing this survey, we went and collected. So for me, I looked at the survey outcomes of the survey, what people were saying. I went and chose themes. You know, that’s what gave us the themes of what I did. So these are the themes that we talked about.
Criminalization as the root cause of our violation is the global impact of the [00:31:00] US policing, including defining police, immigration, trans trans rights, including intersection of sex, work issues and anti-trans laws, rights of sex work, uh, street sex workers, HIV aids and immigration issues, economic justice, including de platforming and loss to access climate change, you know, and its effects on our work and lives, COVID-19, and the rights of substance users.
So these are the things that, you know, this is what gave us, this is how we started the report. And then later on, as time went on, when we were drafting the report, we had different meetings. Weekly, we decided that we should have weekly meetings, and then we assigned SIM to each. Like researcher, this is how we did.
And then during week, during the week, uh, after the, every after week, and the people would report back on the progress on what they have done. Yeah. On the, [00:32:00] on the report. So this is how we went and went and went on. And then towards the end, I think then this is when we got, um, SRI come in writing, I think they wrote an email they wanted to like get involved in working with us.
So we shared with them the report, they approve. And this is how we, I mean that’s how the report came to an end. And then we finalized and then we worked with SRI, they helped us like to be included in the like in Geneva. So this is how it came about. If I’ve forgotten anything, please. My team who I worked with, mam PJ and.
Unusual I would add on something, but for me, as a puta, this is what I saw when I was leading the process. Thank you so much.
AM: I love that. Thank you. Um, Erika, do you have anything to add? I do have a couple questions, but I wanna make sure Erica gets a chance to, um, fill in
some things.
Erika: Um, no. Basically they say everything, um, the UPR is, but [00:33:00] the UPR is very helpful and it’s, um, it’s very important that a lot of people get on board with it.
AM: Gotcha. And, and what exactly is SRI for our audience members who not, who may not know that Acronym
Beyonce: I is Sexualizing Rights Initiatives. It’s an organization that is based in Geneva.
AM: Awesome. Thank you so much. And I have a question about the, the report that you’re talking about that you, you know, you, um, shared in April.
Um, who, who reviews that? Because you, you’re sending that to someone of in power or of importance in the United States government, I’m guessing. Who, who is
that person or group?
PJ: No, I’m getting that wrong. No, to explain. Explain. Okay. Okay. Like, listen, N’Jaila and I and our third colleague from Atlanta learned in Geneva, the rules are changing all the time at the United Nations about how to [00:34:00] do something, how to sign up for something.
And it’s all about barriers, right? And a lot of it is about the United States being fearful, the United United States as an entity, like representatives of the State Department and whatnot, being fearful that the community might actually speak to them. Right. So, uh, this particular report we uploaded into a system.
I was nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof. I was very nervous about the system failing because every time we would try to do something, the system would go down in Geneva, but we uploaded it to their fairly new system. And it goes up and it becomes part of the official documentation. If you get it in on time, it becomes part of the official record, which I think just in and of itself is so important to us.
Like, we’re here, we’re communities we represent and we are not going away. Put it in your archives and put it up there so it goes into the official, you know, [00:35:00] engine of the, of the United Nations, but then it is collated by some magical elves at the United Nations and shown to the United States. So it really is what the current administration would not like, is that people are talking to you, right? The people that you’ve harmed are now talking to you. Right? So, uh, yeah, the United States receives it ultimately, but it goes through the UN. N’Jaila, Does that
sound right to
you?
N’Jaila: Yeah. And, um, all the documents that are uploaded to that system can be reviewed by, um, member states and they could use that in their review process.
AM: So
is
that publicly accessible or is that
N’Jaila: Yes.
AM: Okay. Okay.
PJ: And that’s why we did, uh, all of us did. Every single person was involved in this. That’s why we did a really rigorous process to make sure that every [00:36:00] time we said some something directly from somebody or mentioned a group, because it is public, we made sure that everybody knew that and everybody had buy-in.
So that’s a pretty big part of our process, that even though people filled in a survey or spoke to us, knowing that it would be used, it’s another thing to see it being used. So we made sure, you know, to the best as humanly possible, that everything was checked with everybody and people know this is public.
AM: Right, right, right.
PJ: But it’s very important in these times that. There’s public information about our issues that were not disappeared.
AM: Right. That’s on record’s.
PJ: Mm-hmm.
AM: It’s been historically stamped. This work has been happening. We’ve gathered this information, we told you what it is. You can’t say we didn’t do it, kind of thing.
Right,
N’Jaila: exactly.
PJ: Exactly. Mm-hmm.
AM: Yeah, and I would like to add like, you know, this is like real work, right? This is like behind the scenes, so much scenes, so much work detail [00:37:00] oriented, you know, up against these governments who really don’t regard us very well. And it’s not super sexy work, but it is so important.
I find it extremely sexy. I’m fascinated by like hardcore behind the scenes thankless work because it is so important to how we move forward in the future and for like sex workers and trans people having the rights that are like, should be birth given, right? We, we are born into this world. We deserve these rights from birth and like, I’m just wanna just, I just admire the work that you’re doing and I’m so grateful for it.
Thank you. Um,
PJ: Well AM, I wanted to, uh, mention like, uh, how people are making this real. Our colleague at the Scarlet Prosperity Project in Atlanta, which is a fairly newly established, uh. Sex worker led organization. . Um, is really [00:38:00] using everything in like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to say
AM: Nice.
PJ: That is US sex workers in there. Um, also, uh, and using it to frame the writing workshops that the leaders are promoting through that, through their, through the Scarlett Prosperity Project. And it’s actually very inspirational to me to see someone go back to the basic principles and say, we should have all this.
And I think it’s part of remu removing whorephobia in general, but also that, I hate to say it, but maybe I can say it on a podcast internalized whorephobia, where on some level some of us believe we shouldn’t have this. Right? Yeah. So it’s also about saying, wait, wait, wait. In a collective space, such as a writing workshop, let’s discourse on this, let’s discourse on the fact that you have the right to earn an income.
And that’s very, uh meaningful work to us, to all of us, to bring it back [00:39:00] to like, we could go down to the Article 25 and 1979 and like do all these footnotes, but you can just go back to the big picture items and say, that’s us. We have a right to work end of story.
N’Jaila: Yeah. And uh, one of the things that I hope a lot of people take from our work, uh, I hope that people feel empowered because like, yes, we are, uh, a group of sex workers that have, uh, you know, a certain skillset.
But I hope that speaks the fact that there are many sex workers that have our skillset and could do the work that we’re doing. And I hope so many more, uh, join us. Um, and I really hope that this dispels the myth that, um sex workers are, need to be invited to the table of activism [00:40:00] because we’re the ones building the table and we’ve built the table.
AM: Mm-hmm.
N’Jaila: And it’s not really, um, anyone’s place to invite us because a lot of the tactics and a lot of, um, the proven, uh, practices, people learned from us. And then once it became less convenient to have us around, we got disappeared from the narrative. But sex workers has have always been active and have always been vocal about wanting rights like everyone else.
AM: Right. Absolutely.
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AM: Erika, I have a question for you, living in DC if, if that’s all right. Just wondering, because DC is such a political part, a political city in our country, um, like what are, do you experience like more being able to be more connected to politicians or is your work, uh, political in DC and, and what, you know, because you’re more adjacent to the buildings and, and the, the politicians there.
Can you, [00:42:00] you know, give us some insight on what that’s like, or, or do you not necessarily engage just because you live there?
Erika: Um, a little bit of both, but I can honestly say that it’s more easier to, to connect with politicians in other cities and other states than it is here. Um, far as here. Um, every, it is like, they’re so sheltered.
They’re so secluded to like just being inside of a building to where though we may not have access. Um, but I, I, I found it more easier to connect with politicians in other states and cities. It is just, they’re more open, but here they’re just so more kinda, I wanna say, like guarded.
AM: I see. Yeah. I guess that makes sense.
Yeah. And I’m just wondering, like, do the, does DC like sort of set [00:43:00] the tone for like what what the, I get ’cause the administration, right? I’m thinking of the administration and they’re mostly in DC and they’re, they’re the ones that have been like, I mean they wrote us out of the, um, you remember when they were giving away that money?
The, the small business loans? And that was the Trump administration that wrote us out of that. Right.
Erika: The stimulus now.
AM: Yeah, it was, it was also the small business loans.
Erika: Oh,
the B, the PP loans,
AM: I think. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And they were like, ’cause we were purient Right. That was the first time I heard that word in my life.
I was like, huh. Yeah. But I’m just wondering, like, do, do, does DC and do the people there, are they like, obviously they must be setting the tone for the way things are going overall in the United States, or is it becoming more state to state? Because that also kind of feels like what the administration wants and does this affect your work at all or.
You know, it, it, I’m just trying to tie in [00:44:00] some pieces together. ’cause things have changed so drastically in the last, just in this last year?
Erika: Yeah. Well, well, I would say, um, previously in past years, yes, it was DC that was basically setting the tone. Um, but now it seems like, like I say, it is more, um, state to state that’s setting their own tone because some people are on, uh, are on board with the BS that’s going on in Congress and, and, and, and in the White House.
And a lot of the states are not in agreeance with it. So, um, just being here in DC it’s like, it seems like it’s getting harder
to
connect, to be able to have our voices heard. That’s why I said like, if, if we go to other states. It’s like they’re willing to listen. Here, they’re not willing to listen to anything.[00:45:00]
AM: I see. Well, that’s frustrating. Um, thank you for sharing that. And I’d also love to know like what are some things that, and hold on, before I ask any more questions, I wanna check in and see if there’s anything anyone wants to say before I kind of change the subject.
PJ: I have something to say about the relationship between DC and the United Nations that people might have heard of.
AM: Okay.
PJ: Um, and we were hoping that another colleague of ours would be here from the Trans Income Project to speak specifically to this issue, but they’re not here, so I’ll raise it up. Uh, you know, the Trump administration has pulled out of the Human Rights Council. I believe that was in March, but earlier on this year.
AM: Okay.
PJ: So what that means is the United States is not present. There’s no delegation. The, the, the US. It’s not there. So people were saying to us, well then does this change your strategy? Not [00:46:00] really, because in terms of what we’re doing and saying, not really because someone’s gotta say something somewhere.
Right. When, um, there was a change of administration and the Trump administration began, you know, was coming in after November of last year, uh, we did discuss and say, you know, going into DC would not really be safe for us things could happen, right? Like, uh, the people who are, many of the people who are now in power are, are, um, have perpetrated sexual assault.
AM: Yeah.
PJ: Can we in good faith, walk into a meeting? Was someone who has assaulted vulnerable people. Right?
AM: Right.
PJ: And so we were like, we’re just gonna play it by ear. But it’s a different situation right now. And you hear that reflected more in what Erika just said.
AM: Mm-hmm.
PJ: But in terms of going to the United Nations, I guess our feeling about it is someone’s gotta say something somewhere.
AM: Mm-hmm.
PJ: And we are taking this to the world [00:47:00] because we do not wanna be forgotten. We don’t wanna be silenced. We’ve already heard it with some of the global networks that we work with and some of the folks that we work with that we’re sort of silenced, that we’re muzzled, we will not be. And that’s why we still go.
Uh, I think there still will be a review of the United States, but the United States may remove itself, which is a very dangerous precedent we heard. But just wanted to make that connection between why we doing what we are doing and what can be done in DC. And a lot of it is harm reduction because, uh, there’s no two ways around it.
Some of the people in power right now are, are physically, personally dangerous to vulnerable groups of people. Right,
AM: right.
Yeah.
N’Jaila, you look like you had something on your mind.[00:48:00]
N’Jaila: I did. And now it’s gone, but I
apologize for that.
AM: No, no, it’s fine.
PJ: The other thing I would say, just while Nala’s gathering a thought or thoughts is that, uh, when we are in Geneva, we saw a lot of fear, um, globally. It was a different global environment than I had been at the last time I went to the Uni United Nations in Geneva was in 2015.
Everything has changed now. People are more fearful of each other. Security is much more hardline, um, spaces. It’s almost like when you’re walking into some spaces, it’s like you’re walking into an empty space. It’s a mausoleum The United States actually created a situation, a policy, uh, inside the UN that we can no longer go up and speak to countries.
We we’re civil society, we’re organizations. Uh, the US created a policy. I’m not sure how it [00:49:00] happened exactly, but the US put pressure on the UN recently so that none of us can speak to country delegations in the main room, nor in the cafeteria. . Why did this policy happen? Because a set of activists and advocates, uh, organizing about the rights of Palestinians spoke to the US delegation.
Yeah.
AM: Okay.
N’Jaila: And I was in Geneva last year, um, and it, it’s just different
AM: even from just last year.
N’Jaila: Yes.
AM: Okay.
N’Jaila: You know, a lot people kind of we’re a lot more open to talk with you. Um, we were able to have some really great meetings with the special Rapporteur on the right to health. Um, and while, yes, there were some really good meetings that we were able to attend while we were there [00:50:00] that were very, um, progressive and, you know, pro harm reduction, it seemed like people were more caged off.
Um, there was less expectation to actually speak to, um, the ecosex status, having, um organization that for, you know, a decade or more were able to speak freely on that floor. That was the expectation. Uh, and then that rule was changed, but no formal, uh, there was no mechanism to formally tell us that that rule has changed, which could have been very dangerous.
’cause we, the first day we went, we did not know that the rule had changed. So we went and addressed, uh, uh, what country did we speak to? Australia. Uh, and they were [00:51:00] very friendly, uh, very, we had a very productive, uh, talk with them. But if it was a delegation that was potentially hostile who it happened. We could have been ejected.
So,
yeah.
AM: Yeah. The Australians are pretty cool in general.
PJ: Yeah. He was a little taken aback when we came up to, spoke to speak to him in Zealand.
AM: ’cause he
knew the rule,
maybe.
PJ: Yeah. And N’Jaila he was a little standoffish, but then he warmed up. And then at lunch we mentioned we’d spoken to the delegation of Australia and we’d actually, you know, chatted to them inside that room.
And then another organization said, oh, you can’t do that. And as soon as we knew the rule, of course we didn’t do it anymore.
AM: Sure.
PJ: But, uh, yeah.
AM: It’s,
it’s like a That’s so weird though. I’m just trip. I’m tripping. I’m like trying to wrap my head. It’s so weird that you’re not allowed to talk to people. I find that to be so- talk about muzzling.
N’Jaila: I, I, again, coming to that, uh. You can’t talk about the human rights without [00:52:00] addressing the United States because look at the United States using its power to like hush people that are dissenting
AM: because the US made that rule is what you’re saying? It’s it was the US Yes idea.
Like because of this Palestinian situation.
N’Jaila: Yeah.
PJ: Now we were not there. We dunno what happened. Sure. But, uh, pretty much what we were told repeatedly was that people were speaking to the US delegation and they did not wanna hear what they were saying. So, um, okay. I think that’s how the United States kind of is in political land now, federally, so we’ve just gotta keep doing what we’re doing and yeah, maintain our safety, but keep saying we don’t wanna be erased.
Right.
N’Jaila: Yeah.
PJ: We won’t be erased. And, um, to maybe throw it to Beyonce, I mean, Beyonce has such, so many years of global [00:53:00] experience and that’s why we, uh, Beyonce was selected to get the main issues of our reports so that we would not in our isolation, maybe, uh, skip over an issue because Beyonce knows the global scene.
So that’s why Beyonce was the leader on the report development, so that we maintained the strength that we should have, if that makes sense. Because sometimes when you’re isolated, you start thinking, well, maybe I can’t say this. Maybe I can’t say that.
AM: Beyonce.
Beyonce: Yeah. Thank you mam PJ. Yeah, I think you’re right.
Everything that you said, you know, coming in as a, I mean, as a global, um, activist, um, speaking to this, uh, human rights issue because one of the things that I’ve realized, um, I think now we are under attack. [00:54:00] We are under attack because there’s this, it’s called, what is it called? The anti, anti gender, anti-race movement is coming.
And by the way, this thing had happened before and we didn’t know, because I remember the time when, um, before I left, before I came to the US we had a beating. Before Ruth Morgan, you remember before Ruth Morgan left NSWP, there was this thing of like, um, donors pulling out of, you know, you know, funding sex workers.
It had already started, for example, for the foundation, Open Society foundations. All donors had pulled out. You know, these things had started earlier on. And then later on when I came, um, when we had a meeting, when we talked about the funding freeze, we had a webinar again that was led by Jewels at NSWP, talking about the funding freeze.
Other groups from different, you know, from the different com co continents we’re talking about the funding freeze, how it has affected them. Even the Dutch government, everywhere people had, [00:55:00] you know, we no longer, people no longer recognize us. So, and you know, sex workers, we are in the human rights. That’s where we belong.
We are in the human rights. So meaning that if they do different human rights, meaning that they are scribed us away, but like, I like how Mum PJ just says, we won’t be Aris, we then no one can stop us. I like that. Keep on For me, I learned that it’s resilience. If you’re an activist or an advocate, even for me, I was in, um, I was in, I used to work in a hostile environment, but even there where I was, it is life and death.
You can be killed. But I never gave up. I was doing my activism because I knew people who were there for me. Like mom PJ keeps supporting. I remembered during the COVID Pandemic, we had a lockdown. There was a very violent curfew. Everyone came to me because I was a leader. Trans women, now, they were not going to do sex workers on the street.
They were not going in the brothels everywhere. But, you know, one of the things, ’cause we had, I knew Mom PJ was there. I could [00:56:00] write to her. Here, I’m stuck. The members have been attacked and she could send money. So this is the only, the money that she sent to me, I didn’t have money. It helped me to buy food for these people.
I could even send them facilitation via the phone, the mobile money. We had what is called mobile money, like here it is called Cash App. I could send it to them, you know, to go those ones who needed to go and do their refills on the HIV programs and stuff like that. That is the mom PJ, the money you sent was the one that was helping us in Uganda.
Can you imagine? So this is one of the things I learned again, for us as sex worker, I think we have solidarity. We really do care about each other. We look out for each other globally. Sex workers, we have that love. We care about each other. Yeah, I think that’s what I would say when it comes to global, the things that I’ve seen.
But again, also there is, um, one of the things I saw during the activism, I saw there is stigma and there is stigma and discrimination. For example, when I went. In, um, there is this called [00:57:00] ILGA. I went to the ilga conference in Bangkok, but we were denied, you know, we were discriminated. Like, I felt like, I don’t, I’m a trans woman, but I identify as a sex worker, you know, but I was discriminated, you know, I was stigmatized in that conference, so I felt like I don’t belong in the LGBT anymore.
I really don’t belong there. So that’s why for me, I always stick to sex work. Yeah. Thank you.
AM: Thank you. Yeah. I would like to, as we start to wrap up, one of the things I wanna ask about is what, um, what are some of your current goals and also what are things that you want people to know about that you want, like what point do you really wanna get across to, um, this audience of, um, what they should be most aware about, um, et cetera.
But before we do that, I just wanna make sure, is there anything else that we should talk about that’s of significance that we may have missed?[00:58:00]
Okay. So, yeah, so I guess the first question that we’ll start with is what are some of your current goals, some things that you’re working on that you would like to see come to fruition?
N’Jaila: Well, you know, NJ RUA, our whole, we exist because we’re a collection of activists that want decriminalization.
AM: Mm-hmm.
N’Jaila: We very much believe that no person should be criminalized, especially the way the United States, uh, criminalizes people. It is you basically become an un person. And we want, not, not just sex workers, but like nobody should have their bodily autonomy robbed from them [00:59:00] by the state. So that’s why we’re, we go so hard in the paint for decriminalization because we have, like PJ said, the right to work.
We should have the right to gather, we should have, um, the right to free speech and the right to expression. We are acting on our human rights. So I would hope that, um, when people hear about the work that we’re doing, they would know that it’s all connected. So if there are some non-sex workers who are listening to this podcast, know that our rights are intrinsically, uh, connected.
AM: Yes.
N’Jaila: What, what they’re doing to sex workers. That is going to be the infrastructure on how to take your rights and, and your bodily autonomy away. Um, we see it with, um, some these very bad age verification bills.
Erika: Mm. Um, there’s
N’Jaila: one proposed in New Jersey [01:00:00] that we are going to fight tooth and nail. S-4455. Okay. Um, we are trying to fight bills that are trying to increase criminalization of sex workers in New Jersey. Um, bill A-4304 and S-4123 um, which upgrade offenses of prostitution as a patron and also, prostitution crimes and creates the leader of a prostitution network, which is just a way to compound, uh, uh, criminalization and just to compound how much, uh, time and money can be extracted from the community.
So I really hope that, uh, those that are sex workers who are not activists, um, this is the call to action. Like we don’t, we don’t have a lot of time left to sit on our laurels. So at this point in the game, if you’re the United States, [01:01:00] we all have to fight because if you see groups losing their human rights, it’s only a matter of time before it’s yours.
AM: That was really powerful. Thank you for saying all
of that. Yeah. Um. I don’t really have any follow up questions to that. That was really beautifully said and so needed to for people to hear. Yeah. Does anyone else have anything to add?
PJ: Uh, I think, I mean, I’m sure Erika and Beyonce will have something to add, but yeah, that’s why we’re a partnership with New Jersey Red Umbrella Alliance.
Like we’ve been partner organizations for as long, forever, uh, ever since we got the idea to have a local group in New Jersey, uh, and support that. So, you know, that’s, that’s why, because it’s so important. But every person in their own state or own [01:02:00] situation is gonna hear what N’Jaila just said and said, I’m in that situation and I’m doing something.
You’re not alone. Uh, and what would a goal of Best Practices be through this UN work? Is that more people are, more people from our communities are connected. You know, you’re not alone. There’s folks out there. And then in addition to that, I think Best Practices has always been in the business of freeing our minds because we are, we have spent so many years being told that we’re worthless.
That we can’t do this, that we can’t do that. And so what we do at Best Practices is just very organically between ourselves and to others. Say, what can we do? What would you like to do? How can we get there? What’s the risk? What’s the benefit? And I think that’s what we’re doing to be more free. That’s our [01:03:00] absolutely long-term goal.
And that includes freeing your mind from the strictures that have been placed on us because of all the, um, the stigma. But I’ll throw it to Beyonce and Erika as to, you know. Yeah. N’Jaila, you said it. We agree.
Beyonce: Yeah. For me, N’Jaila has already said it. I think we are good, but for me also, I always like saying that, um, I would love to live in the world.
I want to live in a world where sex work is decriminalized, where I’m free. Like if I go somewhere and say, oh, I’m a sex worker, I need to go here.
No one will when one, no one will refuse me to enter. Like, for example, I’m giving this other, when we went to, um, when we went to a PA during the tricycle convening, we tried to do outreaches. We went to strip clubs, but some of the strip clubs were refusing us yet who are going there. These [01:04:00] people who are strippers as sex workers, we are going there, we are giving them information.
You know, like we are giving them like information on sex workers, HIV prevention, but they wouldn’t allow us to enter. What does it mean? Because sex work is still criminalized in this country. So I think for us as advocates for activists, we shouldn’t give up. For me, I always say resilience, um, power, courage, bravery.
If you have those things that give you the power to do, you know, activism, you’ll always go through and it’ll always, you’ll never give up. It’ll always give you the power and the strength that you’ll never give me shaken. Those are the things that I used to use in myself when I was doing, um, activism back home in the hotel environment, I would say, oh.
Power, courage, and bravery. One of those things. Those are the things that will give you the courage and the hope for me. Those are my hope. Resilience, that is my hope, and doing my work and never give up. Like I like when mom PJ says, [01:05:00] no one will stop us. So I believe no one should stop us. No one should erase us.
Let’s keep on. Thank you so much. And I like being a puta. I’m a puta.
AM: Thank you.
Erika: For me, I would say, um,
unite and join the fight because like N’Jaila said, we’re running outta time and this road is getting rougher and rougher, um, to all the sex workers out there. The non-sex workers, the people who support sex work but don’t do sex work. The trans people out there, the trans of color, it’s all about us because what’s happening is they’re trying to erase us, which, like Penny said, we can’t be erased. But they’re trying their hardest, but they don’t know what they have in store for them. It’s going to be a fight. So
yeah, everybody
need to be on one accord and [01:06:00] let’s go ahead on head to head with whatever comes our way.
AM: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And how can people support you, find you and support you, and what are the best ways? Like what, what’s the best way of support you’re looking for?
N’Jaila: Um, I’m gonna quote, Takia. Uh, money. Give us money. Uh, unfortunately to do this work, it takes so much money. Uh, ’cause you know.
To do our surveys and try to support people. You know, we wanted to pay people for their time, even if it was just 20 to 50 bucks, that that’s money. And we had to write a lot of grants and do a lot of ground, uh, like on the groundwork to make sure that we just had enough cash to cover, uh, just letting [01:07:00] people do the survey.
So without a lot of like that grassroots, like community-based sharing of resources, this action could not have prospered. Um, and yes, we do get grants, but um, they can only go so far. And, uh, it is, unfortunately we are in an environment now where that could be very risky. Both Best Practices and NJ RUA have been supported by the Ben and Jerry Fund.
Well, Unilever just defunded the Ben and Jerry’s fund because they didn’t like what they were doing.
AM: So that’s good to know.
N’Jaila: Yeah. And there are certain funds that are losing their status because people don’t like that they’re supporting certain views, and it’s only a matter of time until sex workers’ rights is gonna be one of those views that gets [01:08:00] you defunded.
So we’re gonna have to support each other. So I’m really hoping that, you know, those that have the means really make it a point to support your local sex worker rights advocates. Um, you know, uh. Uh, if you go to njrua.org, we have our donation page. You could do a recurring donation. As you know, we are fiscally sponsored and we’re also, uh, federally, uh, tax exempt, so you can write it off.
Uh, but we, this the movement needs support. Yeah. Uh, and money is very important, but also, um, volunteering would be great. Uh, but I also know that not everybody has, uh, you know, the time or even the mental health to be able to volunteer. But, uh, if you can make it to some of, of [01:09:00] our events, uh, NJ RUA and, uh, B Triple P will be marching in Newark Pride.
Um, I think building on the ground community is gonna be so important in the upcoming years. So, um, find us get in contact even if you don’t have, you know, a thousand hours a year to donate your time. Um, just, you could always send us emails asking how you could help join our mailing list so you can know what we’re doing.
Um, because our groups and all the groups in the coalition we’re constantly doing things, we constantly have actions. So, um, reach out. We’re here and yeah.
AM: Thank you.
PJ: I would, uh, chip in to say that, um. I mean, there’s a lot of things I’d like to say, uh, but I never saw myself as a donor. [01:10:00] You know, I grew up on welfare in Australia, you know, and uh, when we got a government benefit, my family would be like, congrats.
Right? So, you know, I grew up never thinking that I would be able to donate to anyone else. But then through the example of Carol Lee, mom, Carol Lee, uh, she would always give $25 to everyone’s film and project and I would say, Hey mom, you don’t have to give $25 to my film. But she’s like, no, no. I donate $25 to everyone.
And her stating that changed my life. I was like, oh, I could give $25 to everyone that has a fundraiser, or I could give $5. So it’s about understanding that we are small donors and that is important and will keep people going. I would also say when you’re filling out a survey or a contact form, Best Practices has a brand new contact [01:11:00] form on our website, which we never had before.
There was never any way to contact us because we’re shy people. But if you go to best practices policy.org/contact/, you can find our contact form and you could reach out and say hello or so on social media. But you know, a lot of people who filled out our survey, over 200 people filled out our survey and spoke to us and people would send us little messages through the forms of like, I would love to fill out another survey.
I would love to be heard again. I would love to meet you. Are you having an event? Like just Words of Kindness through the survey form?
AM: Yeah.
PJ: Your words have impact.
AM: Yeah.
PJ: Right. So do that. Right? Like just reach out and, uh. With most of the small organizations that are working for the rights of sex workers and trans people, it is very hard for us to take on more.
But if you came to some events, came to some film screenings, you could make friends with us, what do we need now? We need [01:12:00] friends and a network and thank you N’Jaila for all of that good stuff. But you know, p it can be even smaller than that. Just a kind word. Yeah. Uh, through our UPR process, through the surveying, we’ve had some new groups join us.
Just we’re kind of like, Hey, I’d like to go to Geneva. So we’ve had some new groups join us and it’s so empowering and we also have been taking it slowly because it takes time to get to know new groups, but just with these new groups coming on, it feels really good.
AM: That’s awesome. Thank you.
PJ: No worries.
AM: Thank you so much. Thank you to all of you for being here today and sharing all of your wisdom, knowledge, and lived experience and your work that you’re doing is incredible. Um, just so much appreciation for all of you and for your time today. Thank you.
N’Jaila: Thank
you.
Thank
you so
much for having us.
AM: Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you to our audience for listening. Don’t forget to rate, review [01:13:00] and subscribe. Thank you, Takia. Thank you. And Beyonce, N’Jaila, and PJ. You’re all so awesome. And, um, to our audience members, please be sure to comment, um, on this particular episode because that is literally what they’re asking for is a response and engagement and donations.
Thank you so much everyone. Next time. See you.