Stripping Down the Binary with Karma Chase Transcript
What if every boob job conversation was already a gender conversation—we just didn’t know how to name it? Guest host Lisa Michelle talks with Karma Chase about how elective surgery intersects with identity and self-worth. Karma shares the emotional and physical aftermath of breast augmentation as a working stripper—and how the experience reshaped their understanding of embodiment and value. Listen now and rethink everything you thought you knew about boobs, binaries, and body autonomy.
*This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors.* *This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors.* Begin transcript after opening credits.
Lisa (00:05.219)
Hi, you’re listening to Yes Podcast, AKA Yes, a Stripper Podcast. And this is Lisa Michelle. I am your host today. And we have Am Davies as our producer. Say hello. Nice mug. It’s really appropriate for our topic of the day.
AM Davies (00:16.94)
Hello, hello. Thank you.
AM Davies (00:24.204)
It is. I almost picked a different mug and then I was like, wait a second. I have a booby mug. yeah, I can smoke weed out of it, but I thought I’d try to stay sober for this. there’s just tea in here. Remember when I told you I was going to get kava tea or drink kava tea and you’re like, you need to drink a lot of it to make, to be tired. That did not happen. I drank one.
Lisa (00:32.383)
Uh-huh. A multi-featured booby mug.
Hahaha
Lisa (00:48.242)
yeah.
AM Davies (00:54.278)
cup with one teabag and I was exhausted. Yes, I went to sleep in the middle of the day. It was like 4.30.
Lisa (00:56.759)
Really?
Lisa (01:01.411)
That’s awesome. Maybe the one you had was it had like a lot like a longer metabolizing time because it’s like really dry.
AM Davies (01:08.806)
Or maybe it’s just strong because like, as after you told me that I was like, oh, one of these days I got to try two bags at once. And then, and then after that, I was like, hell no, I need to stay awake during the day. Yeah.
Lisa (01:16.419)
No, don’t do that. I mean, listen, it’s Maybe I’ll try it because I’ve never had dried. I’ve only had like fresh cava, like the juice. I’ve never had like, you know, cava tea. So.
AM Davies (01:28.686)
Yeah, I just got this crap from the grocery store. You know what saying? It’s like not fancy and that shit put me to sleep. So this is strawberry tea, not kava. I’m not messing with that during the day. Yeah. Anyway, so excited for today for your episode.
Lisa (01:36.841)
noted. I will try that at 4 a.m.
Okay, yes, yes, so am I. I’m really excited and today’s episode is about elective procedures specifically. We’re talking about breast augmentation. And our guest today is Karma. And you can come on and say hello.
Lisa (02:06.243)
Hello. Hello, it’s nice to meet you. Yeah, and your little dog. You didn’t like that. This is, do you want to tell everyone your dog’s name?
Karma chase (02:09.326)
Nice to see you. Lovely to meet you.
Karma chase (02:21.23)
This is Klaus. He is looking out the window right now. We’re facing a window and he’s on guard. He’s protecting me.
Lisa (02:22.924)
now.
Lisa (02:27.972)
He’s a very handsome guard dog. Okay, before we get started, do you want to share with everyone your pronouns?
Karma chase (02:35.788)
Yes, my pronouns are they, them. I’m non-binary. And my name is Parma Chase.
Lisa (02:38.883)
Mm-hmm.
And you identify as a sex worker? Yep. So I tend to use the terms when we’re talking about stripping. I’ll use stripper, entertainer, performer, dancer. Are all of those okay with you? Yeah, me too. Cool. Okay, so we’re gonna talk about your elective procedure today. So let’s just get into it. So I have a couple of questions that I’m gonna…
Karma chase (02:44.716)
I do. Yeah.
Karma chase (02:56.706)
I love all of those.
Karma chase (03:07.118)
Yeah.
Lisa (03:10.315)
look off to for reference, but feel free, like, you know, if you want to rip off over, do you have something specific? Just go into it. So you’ve been a dancer for how long?
Karma chase (03:22.222)
Since I was 18 and I’m 32, so 14 years or am I doing that correctly?
Lisa (03:24.259)
Lisa (03:30.295)
something like that. But you’re a veteran, so you definitely crossed the 10-year mark. And it goes by so fast, right?
Karma chase (03:37.102)
Oh yeah. It really does. I mean, I still feel going into work that I have no idea what I’m doing sometimes. And then other times I’m like a pro and I feel like I’m a veteran and everything is perfect and going my way.
Lisa (03:46.114)
So.
huh.
Lisa (03:54.499)
It’s never the same day twice, that’s for sure. So, well, I guess, you decide to get your breast augmentation before you started dancing or was this during your time in the club?
Karma chase (03:57.208)
That is for sure.
Karma chase (04:08.474)
no, I had been dancing for a while. I got them done in 2018 on October 31st, Halloween, so that I could call them my boobies. And I tell that joke a lot. It doesn’t always land and sometimes people really like it.
Lisa (04:17.516)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (04:22.601)
cool.
I love that. I actually, so I have a regular annual practice to get my pap smear on Halloween because no one’s ever there at the clinic on Halloween and everyone’s in costume. So it’s like kind of fun and you get candy when it’s over. So, you know, right. Yeah. And then I, and then you never forget either, you know, it’s Halloween. Plus it’s just fun to go in a costume.
Karma chase (04:36.81)
I love that.
Karma chase (04:40.462)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (04:46.286)
life hack. I’m going to have to do that.
Karma chase (04:54.829)
Yeah.
Lisa (04:57.889)
I don’t know what I’m going to be this year, but okay. So let’s talk about your, your procedure specifically and how you started, well, how you came to decide that you were going to do it. it like a personal choice or was it something like, this is a work expense, a work decision. Like I need to do this to make more money.
Karma chase (04:58.434)
Yeah.
Karma chase (05:17.504)
It was 100 % a work decision. just, I had lost and gained weight for most of my life. And I was always like a C cup, but at a certain point it just, they became like a rather flat kind of deflated C cup. And I was really into fitness and I was like looking the best I’d ever looked for work. And I was feeling super confident except for that.
Lisa (05:20.471)
Well.
Karma chase (05:47.586)
Particular part and I just knew that it was just gonna keep happening so I wanted to fill them out and I Was getting into the point of dancing where I was like I want to take this seriously I want to I like I’ve resigned to be a career stripper and
I just thought like, this is gonna get me hired at like higher end clubs and which is gonna increase, you know, my quality of my career and obviously my income.
Lisa (06:26.595)
Did you find that to actually be the case that you actually started profiting more? Yeah, most dancers would say that.
Karma chase (06:31.054)
Oh yes, yeah. I had a lot of professional success and that was great. But then it started to really separate from my personal life because they made me very like gender dysphoric. I didn’t realize that I was actually non-binary and like a huge feminization of my body.
Lisa (06:46.091)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (07:01.218)
would be so traumatic for me.
Lisa (07:05.059)
It’s really interesting. Do you feel like that that awareness started because of implants or was it kind of like a culmination of a lot of different things?
Karma chase (07:15.438)
So I was learning a lot more about the gender binary and the spectrum.
Karma chase (07:28.642)
By the time the, sorry, the initial response to my rest was I was just making a lot more money. I was a lot more confident. They were looking, you know, perfect and, you know, perfectly sat because they were brand new. And it took me a while to realize that
Karma chase (07:54.71)
outside of the club when I was trying to dress the way that I normally dress, which is usually right in the middle of feminine and masculine, a little bit androgynous, a little bit.
Lisa (08:08.94)
Hahaha
Karma chase (08:12.792)
I was noticing that nothing sat on my body the way that it used to. And that’s when I started thinking about like, why am I feeling so uncomfortable? Why do I want to cry every time I look in the mirror? Why do I feel incredibly self-conscious at the way I’m being perceived outside of work? And to be clear, like at work, like I look great in like a micro-kini or like dancewear or
lingerie. Like I, I still feel incredibly confident at the club, but my breasts are very large, which was not what I expected. yeah, I feel like I
I was supposed to get like a large augmentation, but it was still supposed to be proportionate to my very small frame. I’m five feet tall, 100 pounds, and I’m like a triple D. I was supposed to be like a D cup, and I am like a 30 triple D right now. And it looks ridiculous when I’m not at the club.
Lisa (09:15.331)
thought you were taller. Really?
Lisa (09:23.789)
So how did that, I’m imagining like, okay, because this sometimes happens with surgeons. They take their own interpretation of what you want, but that’s a pretty big discrepancy. I’ve had three augmentations now and every time they said that there’s there’s kind of a range of like,
Karma chase (09:36.11)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (09:46.179)
you know, 20 to 40 CCs where there might be like, maybe it’ll be a little bit less than what we talked about a little bit more, just because implants, silicone implants come, you know, pre-made. So how, how did this conversation with your surgeon go about where like F turned into triple or D turned into triple D.
Karma chase (10:03.598)
So originally we had decided on a 450cc implant. We were going to do like a high profile, which is like from the side. You know, it’s, it’s very noticeable from the side. we were going to do a high profile 450cc. It was supposed to get, put me at a, at a D cup from like, you know, a not very full C. It was not supposed to be huge, but it was supposed to be like, you know, significant enough.
Lisa (10:09.859)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (10:16.173)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (10:31.766)
And that’s what we agreed upon at the consultation all the way up until like my pre-surgery appointment and all the way up until the morning of. And my surgeon specifically, because I have some like medical trauma and stuff, he gave me Valium for the night before and the morning of, and then he gave me more Valium in my IV the morning of when I was about to be.
rolled in because I was super, super, super nervous. And I was actually in the stripper groups, like on Facebook, you know, the ones that I’m talking about. and I was talking about how, you know, it’s the morning of I’m really nervous, you know, give me some words of encouragement. And everyone was like, go bigger than you think you want. Like my biggest regret is not going bigger, not going bigger, not going bigger, not realizing
Lisa (11:11.724)
Yes.
Karma chase (11:30.136)
but these people are all cisgender and not realizing that I am not. So I was a little nervous and after he sedated me, like on the volume, I remember being rolled in, like they were rolling me into the operating room and I was like, hey, is there any way we could go like a half a cup size bigger?
And I do specifically remember, the only thing I remember is that he like winked at me and he was like, I got you covered. And so we were supposed to do a 450 cc implant. I woke up and he told me they did a 615. These I know is like knowing what I know now. It’s huge. It’s a huge implant.
Lisa (12:10.548)
Whoa.
Karma chase (12:20.078)
So I just wanted to go like a little bit bigger and I guess that’s what they had in stock and I was not totally in my right mind. And he was definitely a salesman over an artist, craftsman. He really convinced me that everything was gonna go well. I also had like liposuction on my just midsection.
Lisa (12:36.301)
We just talked about this. Yeah.
Lisa (12:44.771)
you
Karma chase (12:44.914)
during the same procedure and he kind of messed that up a little bit too. Like, it’s not that bad now, but I can definitely feel where he, could have. Done better, especially all the research I’ve done in the last 6 years since I’ve had it. Done.
Lisa (12:50.019)
and then.
Lisa (13:01.859)
Okay, so my first thought is usually when you sign off on your deposit for your surgery, there’s some paperwork you have to sign and now I want to go find my paperwork now. I’m wondering if the CC size is agreed upon, but probably not because sometimes I do have to, like I said before, adjust a little bit. But that’s quite a huge difference from, and to be doing that while you’re sedated.
Karma chase (13:31.214)
Yeah, I actually talked to him about that and I do have my paperwork. I got a copy of the paperwork and it does say 450 cc’s and he should not have, he should have waited. He should have paused and said, are you sure? I think we should stick to the original plan or we should wait until we have a more appropriate implant size or we should just give you like a half an hour to be less sedated.
Lisa (13:33.076)
Hmm.
Lisa (13:42.563)
Yes.
Lisa (13:58.388)
Yes. Yeah.
Karma chase (14:01.782)
Because I talked to him afterwards and I was like, these are really big. And I went over the muscle. Another thing that I would not recommend, especially with huge implants, it stretches the scar capsule out and gravity is a huge factor. Like they’re only six years old and I’m already wanting to like get a lift and replacement because they’re causing me, you know, some problems. They’re so heavy and they’re, really coming down.
Lisa (14:10.37)
Mm.
Lisa (14:16.963)
Hmm.
Lisa (14:32.119)
Mm.
Karma chase (14:32.922)
but I talked to him and he was just like, he really gave me kind of a tough shit answer, which was just, this is what you agreed to. You know, my nurses thought it was the right call at the, at the same time. Like they, they heard you say it. And my mom was the one who was in the room with me. She took me and she picked me up and she remembers me asking.
or talking about it. And she remembers me being very out of it. But she remembers that, you know, I felt pretty strongly about it. So I don’t really know. I didn’t, I didn’t love that. He didn’t give me very much information about size. And I mean, I don’t think a 615 CC is healthy.
or appropriate for someone with my frame, like my neck, my shoulders, my back, they are killing me. Like no matter what I do with yoga, posture training, all the strength training I do, all the pull I do, it’s not an appropriate size for someone my height at all.
Lisa (15:53.857)
Yeah. How long have you had, has it been almost pretty much since the surgery immediately is when you started feeling the back pain and all that?
Karma chase (16:02.378)
I would say the pain, I’ve always, I’m chronically ill. have hypermobility and fibromyalgia. So I’ve always had like back pain, but I’ve never had upper back pain. I’ve never had like really serious upper back, neck and shoulder tension the way that I do. I’m sorry, what?
Lisa (16:23.907)
places you would have it, yeah. All the places you would have it if you had a lot of weight in the front of your body. That makes sense.
Karma chase (16:32.91)
Yeah, I would say it was about a year, maybe two years. I started feeling the gender dysphoria after about a year. And I would say that the really noticeable kind of consistent issues that I’ve had started about two, two and a half years after. mean, I was in pretty good shape and I was working a lot and, you know, training your posture when you’re at work, you know, you’re kind of thinking about it, or at least I am all the time. Like throughout my whole shift, I’m
Lisa (16:47.82)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (16:59.893)
Of course.
Karma chase (17:01.166)
conscious of my posture. I’m really, you know, chin up, chest out, shoulders back, confidence, you know? And so I’m working super often and my posture wasn’t really terrible. And then I started to work a little bit less often. And that’s when I started noticing it was just pulling me forward. And it’s, it’s not been something I’ve been able to correct.
Lisa (17:08.841)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (17:25.623)
Mm.
I’m wondering, this point, so you said it’s been six years that you’ve been working and living with Triple D. At this point, would you want to go back for a revision and do you think it would be worth it?
Karma chase (17:47.6)
absolutely. Absolutely. I kind of desperately want a revision. just want something. I want to go to like what I was originally planning. I would like to get these explained and do a lift because it’s real. I’ve lost some weight and I really don’t have very much fat and it’s really putting a lot of stress on my skin, but I would, I would love to.
Lisa (17:48.984)
Yeah.
Lisa (17:58.691)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (18:17.644)
get a lift, go under the muscle and get smaller implants until I leave the industry permanently, which might be a while. So, and then I would probably get them out like tiny little mosquito bites and just not worry about it. I’d be so happy to just be kind of flat chested.
Lisa (18:30.307)
Yeah.
Lisa (18:37.207)
Yeah.
Lisa (18:40.771)
I feel that. So I got my implants because I was so lopsided and I got them way before I was in the industry. So like, I don’t know what it’s like to be non-binary or have gender dysphoria, but I know what it feels like to look at my body every day and say, this is not the body that I’m ever going to like self that I want to be in. It was a huge impact on my life to have it done and I wouldn’t change it, but
Like what you said, I wish that I would have done a little bit more research and kind of taken my time and talked to other doctors to see how they saw my situation because the last time I had a revision, that was the case. I talked to a lot of doctors. It was really interesting to see how so much of their advice or information really conflicted.
Karma chase (19:21.07)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (19:32.323)
So for me, it was a process of elimination of finding someone that understood the problems that I was having. So I actually had the opposite problem. My mind were under the muscle, but I kept rupturing. yeah. so there’s, know, when we think about it, like implants have not, uh, implant surgery hasn’t been around that long. So there’s not a ton of data. It’s, know, 67, 80s there’s data, but the average lifespan of an implant patient will have them for 10 to 15 years.
Karma chase (19:43.163)
you did?
Lisa (20:01.909)
So, you know, now they’re saying that having them, some doctors, some articles I’ve read say having them under the muscle makes you higher risk of rupturing. every time, right? I don’t know that either. And every time I would go talk to what I recall a higher level doctor, like one that works for a hospital and has like an actual team, they would tell me that like, well, with what you’re doing with your body and the type of work you do.
Karma chase (20:12.26)
I didn’t know that.
Lisa (20:28.867)
maybe it is a coincidence. So I actually ended up going from under the muscle to over the muscle. And I did have a little bit of size increase to fix the size, or implant increase to fix the size as far as I can see. But, you know, I can understand we’re going from being so petite to just not having a lot of skin. And a lot of this for people listening, you have to consider like how much natural tissue do you have to support everyone’s cases differently. And that’s why it’s so important to consider.
talking to the right people, multiple opinions, but also thinking about, this is how I am today. But I mean, what might I be like 10 years from now? And I actually had a doctor that did my second revision say, well, it’s not like you’re ever gonna be like a bodybuilder or anything. And of course, like, you know, seven years later, I got into bodybuilding and then I started having issues with them. I think we need to be like a little more gracious with ourselves because…
Karma chase (21:24.536)
Yeah.
Lisa (21:24.577)
I mean, I’m definitely not the same person I was 17 years ago when I first got them. And good thing we can change it. Yeah.
Karma chase (21:32.448)
Yeah, I mean.
I feel lucky enough that I’m able to save for a revision, but I know that that’s not the case for everybody. Some people will go overseas to get them done because it’s less expensive, and then when they’re not happy with them, they don’t really have the same option. It’s still a lot of money to get a revision. You just kind of have to wait and save over that 10 to 15 year span. I me, I’m definitely getting these revised.
Lisa (21:41.613)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (21:49.243)
huh.
Lisa (21:55.169)
Yes.
Karma chase (22:05.378)
before that 10 year mark for sure, because they’re just, they’re too much for my body to handle. But, you know, I think about that all the time. The fact that a lot of people in the industry who are maybe doing it for survival reasons and stuff, they don’t have the same options to kind of go back and fix the decisions they may be made to get out of a tough situation.
Lisa (22:07.459)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (22:12.012)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (22:28.343)
Yes.
Lisa (22:32.451)
I love where you’re getting out of this. We’re going to pause for a second because we have to do like a little like commercial break. So let’s take a quick break and we’ll be right back. And we’re going to pause one, two, three, four, five, and we’re back. So you were just talking about how you’ve fought ahead because you know for certain that you’re going to be a revision. And this is something that I want a lot of other people getting a breast aug to consider is that
they’re not going to last forever. I have a friend that’s had hers for like 15 or 16 years now, and that is pretty rare. They pretty much decide to self-destruct at 10 years. So you kind of have to be thinking about, it’s like buying a car. Your car is a depreciating asset the second you get it off the lot. So your groove’s on the same thing. And the moment that you get your first set of implants or the next revision, have to start saving for the next one. And I didn’t do that.
Karma chase (23:08.814)
Mm.
Lisa (23:30.115)
with my last set because I thought there’s no way they’re going to rupture again. I have time and of course, you know, now I had to finance them and that’s a really stressful experience to have or go fly to Turkey to have them done. You know, this is like the best piece of wisdom that you can give people listening to this is to understand that once they’re in your body, they’re a liability to your health and you have to plan ahead for, my God.
Karma chase (23:31.31)
You either.
Karma chase (23:40.429)
Yeah.
Lisa (23:59.459)
I a rupture or my saline implant just deflated and when they deflate, it’s like a couple, like two days and it’s totally flat. You can’t go to work like that if you’re dancing or wherever. So it’s worth like thinking about. When it deflates, I don’t have saline, I have silicone, but I’ve read a couple of stories about people that have had saline and when it deflates, know, your body absorbs it, but then you also have, well, usually one will deflate at time. So you have one, ooh.
Karma chase (24:10.722)
How does that feel?
Lisa (24:28.739)
And if your work is based on portraying femininity with these big implants and one of them is flat, it’s probably going to go very well. Oh my gosh. So let me tell you. So when my rupture happened, it happened last June and I was taking my time finding the right doctor. set up all these consults and I really wanted to find the right person this time.
Karma chase (24:40.322)
Well, yeah, I mean, it’s not feminine to be imperfect. You know, for the patriarch.
Lisa (24:58.561)
So I was working with it and I did a little test with some of my customers. I would tell them, I’m gonna be gone in a couple months and then be gone for like two months. So you should get that room with me now. And they like, why are you leaving? I’m like, why have to have surgery? Like I have a ruptured implant and it was almost like I was like contagious. Like what, what’s the matter? Yeah.
Karma chase (25:07.788)
Yeah. Love it.
Karma chase (25:19.21)
my gosh, they’re, are they afraid to like hurt you or?
Lisa (25:24.365)
Probably or it’s what I think it is is because I would tell them no It doesn’t hurt at all. It’s just I don’t want to live with this thing like this I think it was I had taken the veil of the fantasy away and when men see you as not being perfect and just being the Barbie and they suddenly become aware of your humanity and that you’re this complex human being that actually has life outside of a club Isn’t it
Karma chase (25:33.706)
it’s too human.
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (25:50.318)
Yeah. Crazy, right?
Lisa (25:54.083)
Isn’t that wild? So I love that you brought that up because, you know, sometimes dancers will, you know, start a conversation with me at work and I’m getting my boobs done. I’m like, first of all, have you found the right doctor? Have you researched it? Well, I don’t know. I’m like, do you know if you’re going over in a month? Like, you know, I want to like make sure that they know what they’re doing to themselves. And most of the time they haven’t even thought about all of these things that can happen. And yeah.
Karma chase (26:21.378)
Well, my surgeon definitely never told me that breast implants need to be replaced. I did not know that until like maybe six weeks after my surgery. And I have been doing a lot of research, but the thing is, that when you’re excited and you have the money and you’re ready and you know, your surgeon, salesman, is telling you everything you want to hear.
Lisa (26:28.769)
Of course.
Lisa (26:36.451)
No.
Lisa (26:41.986)
Yes.
Lisa (26:46.849)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (26:50.358)
You’re just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let’s do it. You you’re kind of overwhelmed. And I had done a lot of research. had like a lot of people on my list, but during that consultation, everything kind of just froze for me. And I was just ready to get it done. He had like good Google reviews and obviously his work looked good. And I mean, mine look good.
Lisa (27:05.347)
Cool.
Lisa (27:11.809)
Yeah.
Karma chase (27:16.802)
They look great. I get people asking me all the time at the club, like, my God, I’m obsessed with your boobs. Like, where did you get them done? Who’s your surgeon? I’m like, I don’t recommend him. I don’t think that.
Lisa (27:17.154)
They do.
Karma chase (27:33.326)
They don’t feel good. They don’t feel good in my body. I don’t have any positive feedback in my nerves, on my breasts anymore. I only get negative feedback, which is really unfortunate because I used to get a lot. well, mean, not necessarily pain, but just unpleasantness, just discomfort during intimacy. know, people…
Lisa (27:43.523)
you
Lisa (27:48.515)
with pain.
Karma chase (28:00.118)
want to reach for them and I’m just like, I mean, if we’re, you know, I’m not performing right now, so I don’t really want to feel that discomfort. So don’t touch my breath. I don’t really have like, I mean, I used to, I used to have like a lot of positive feedback. was one of my favorite, like erogenous areas to be touched. And I don’t have that anymore. It’s just the skin is so stretched and so stressed that
the nerves don’t really create any.
Lisa (28:33.379)
So that’s like a physiological response, you think. Yeah.
Karma chase (28:37.324)
Yeah.
So I, know, I just like, yeah, they look good. And yeah, I make a lot more money than I used to, but I would, you know, I would definitely recommend getting your breasts done if you want to. But I would also recommend first thinking about your gender identity. Like, I mean, even when you don’t think you have anything, if you know you’re a little queer in your heart, even if you’re not out, like take a minute.
Think about it. How is it actually going to make you feel if you’re not really able to dress or present in a way that you typically want to and outside the club, obviously. And think about your physical needs, like is getting extra weight there going to create problems for me? Is that something I really want to deal with?
I’m going to have to replace them eventually. Is this going to be an ongoing thing? Because once you get an explant and you don’t get implants, you have to decide to go like much smaller if you don’t want sagging, extra loose skin, all that. Think about the emotional, financial ramifications of it. I mean, go for it if it’s really something you want to do, but also
it’s okay to stay in the body that you have and just understand that you might be a little bit less like widely appealing is because that’s what I’ve found. Like as like an alternative, like racially ambiguous person, I wasn’t always everyone’s type. And now I find that like,
Karma chase (30:36.95)
with the augmentation and having lost some weight, like I’m a lot more palatable to almost everyone, which just gives me more options. I get to be a little bit more picky instead of the other way around. But at the same time, I don’t really feel at home in my body.
Lisa (30:56.355)
Is there anything that you gained because you’ve worked with them for several years now that you would miss out on that would be so valuable having had them? That’s probably kind of difficult question. It would be hard to know what you’d be like, you know?
Karma chase (31:13.742)
I mean, while I believe that anybody can find like…
self-worth and value without necessarily.
perpetuating like patriarchal stereotypes and everything. It definitely was something I was like, you know, I 12 grand for my surgeries. Obviously that was the liposuction that I had on my midsection and the breast and my 12 grand, you think I would have like better surgery, but they were $6,000 and then the lipo was $6,000.
Lisa (31:42.401)
that’s right.
Karma chase (31:53.152)
I said, you know, I paid 12 grand for this body that I have and I’ll be damned if I let somebody stiff me on a tip or somebody trying to negotiate me down. And that was it was easier. It was easier for me to find that thought pattern with what I’ve invested in myself. So I invested in myself that way. You know, that’s when I also started really investing in my image and my presentation as a dancer specifically. You know, I got I started.
Lisa (32:00.835)
That’s good.
Lisa (32:10.443)
All right.
Karma chase (32:20.152)
paying a lot more money and getting my hair done professionally and getting extensions sewn in and my nails and the gym memberships and the massages and everything. It’s so many investments that I made in myself that I’m definitely not, like at this point, it’s just like I need to get my investments back. I need to make sure that I am.
Lisa (32:33.123)
no.
Karma chase (32:43.942)
valuing myself because that’s what I’ve put into myself. So the like the positive about it is that when you make a conscious decision to invest in yourself as a dancer, it’s easier for your mind to make that jump to I’ve invested in myself, therefore invaluable, rather than like finding inherent value, like it would be ideal.
Lisa (33:07.843)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (33:11.99)
and utopian if everybody found inherent value in themselves. But I’ve kind of worked backwards with that. Like it was good for me to find that place through the surgeries and the investments. And that was something that I was privileged enough to have.
Lisa (33:13.645)
you
Lisa (33:27.875)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (33:32.854)
And then on that pedestal, I was able to work backwards from that and find inherent value in myself where I’m wrestling with like, well, I feel weird because of this like.
gender contradictory surgery I’ve had. And now I’m trying to find inherent value in myself. I’m trying to go back to the basics and the center and the truth of myself and find value in that.
Lisa (33:51.928)
Yeah.
Karma chase (34:11.02)
because I know that I don’t necessarily feel like I feel super confident in the club, but I don’t feel confident and worthy and genuine outside the club. Like in my personal life, I don’t feel that way because I feel like I’ve betrayed myself because I’ve had the surgery and just realizing that like that was not something I was able to predict. And also you don’t have to be androgynous to be non-binary and also
You know, it doesn’t really matter the decisions I’ve made, I’m still a person who’s like worth knowing and I can still be who I want to be in in the now and I can still present how I want to present in the future if I just focus and and make that a clear goal. So.
Lisa (35:01.431)
That is so beautiful and so insightful. Like I’m hearing you talk and it’s almost like you’ve had this like spiritual experience by stepping outside of.
you’re the body that is you, you you’re kind of, have this, what the meat suit on, like the guy in Men in Black, I forgot his name, Earl, like we’re all kind of in this Earl meat suit. And I don’t feel like any of us is ever, I’m not the feminine portrayal that I am at work. Like, I don’t know who that bitch is. Like, I feel like I’m some like old grandma that just crochets sweaters and, you know, complains about taxes all the time. Like,
Karma chase (35:20.846)
Hehehehe
Karma chase (35:41.784)
Yeah.
Lisa (35:42.369)
But we have to sell this and most of us are not that hyper, just exploded version of femininity. But you found this way of using it like a tool to then find self-worth. when you’re talking, I’m hearing you say like, you’re quantifying it. I pay 12 grand for this tool and now you will give me.
Karma chase (35:51.478)
yeah.
Lisa (36:08.375)
the extra tip that I deserve, you will give me what I want. Everyone comes in a different way. For me, was because I had my implants before I started dancing, so didn’t have like a basic comparison. But when I got my master’s degree and I came back to the club, I came back with a fury because I was like, this brain is really expensive and I’m not going you walk away without compensating me. Right? Yeah.
Karma chase (36:30.67)
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I view sex work just in general as a spiritual experience and it’s this really unique experience where you get to deconstruct compulsory sexuality from genuine intimacy and what feels good to you and what
society wants you to think feels good. And I mean, if you’re really thinking about it and
Karma chase (37:10.39)
It’s.
It’s an experience that not a lot of women get. And I do feel like I feel blessed to have fallen into the industry the way that I did and to be able to actually quantify and qualify my experience and use it as a tool to discover like what is authentic and what is real and.
Lisa (37:31.661)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (37:43.778)
That’s one of the reasons I find it empowering and I get that it’s not the same experience for everyone. And, but for me.
being faced with
that heteronormative stereotype and that patriarchal standard every single time I go into work and thinking about how I can improve and how I can make more money and be more valuable to the men that are in the clubs and then comparing that to what I actually find pleasurable and fulfilling and real and authentic to me.
and seeing how those things are so different and then trying to find like a commonality that can, so that I don’t have to completely and totally dissociate and everything. It’s given me like so much to think about and reflect on, which has made me a lot more compassionate and a lot more aware of other people’s experiences. And it’s just made me a lot less judgmental in general. And so that’s why I feel like
Lisa (38:40.683)
Yes.
Karma chase (38:57.836)
Like sex work is inherently…
spiritual end.
Lisa (39:05.333)
I agree. I learned how to be so much more empathetic because of sex work. And I find it interesting in some professions. I’m currently transitioning into going into tech and in the role that I’m going into, there’s a lot of talk of empathy. You have to understand your customer. have to have empathy for their problems. And when I’m sitting in these like tech meetup calls,
Karma chase (39:26.594)
Yeah.
Lisa (39:31.171)
I’m looking at everyone, I’m like, if only you knew, if only you understood how much empathy we have to have for the guy that slapped us on the ass when we walked by because it took everything inside me to not say something mean or just turn around and punch him, or I would lose my job. So that helps a lot. But to try to understand he is like that because he’s been taught that in order for him to survive as a man, he has to demean women that way or demean other people.
that way, that he perceives us less than. It takes a lot of empathy to be that way. And I honestly don’t think that I would have come out that way. And I think a lot of other sex workers would not come out that way if it wasn’t because of the work.
Karma chase (40:13.805)
Yeah.
Lisa (40:16.835)
Hmm.
Karma chase (40:17.774)
think it’s taught me.
to hold men accountable. I think before I got really heavily involved and like invested, like I was doing stripping.
Lisa (40:24.31)
Mmm.
Karma chase (40:34.798)
for a few years before I decided that like, this is what I’m gonna do. I had like other things in mind and then I, you know, switched lanes and I was like, no, think stripping is actually more conducive to who I am and my lifestyle. I think I may have taken a lot longer to not be such a pick me and not be,
Lisa (40:58.977)
Yeah.
Karma chase (41:02.654)
so forgiving. feel like I have maybe…
It’s not that I have less empathy, it’s that I have less patience for the bullshit and the misogyny and all that. I’ve learned to kind of shut off my like maybe less than healthy understanding for like men’s behavior. just, just, I mean it’s taken me a long, time. But.
Lisa (41:14.499)
Yeah.
Karma chase (41:38.07)
had a lot less.
patience and a lot less I Hold a lot less space or and I mean that doesn’t mean that I’m turning around and I’m like Freaking out at people who are like being disrespectful. I’m I’m definitely the type of person to just say something, you know, you’re like, you know, it’s really not cute to Slap somebody on the ass. Would you would you like it if a stranger hit you? without asking and
Lisa (42:01.336)
Yeah.
Lisa (42:07.895)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (42:10.488)
That’s my favorite thing to say to guys who are like trying to slap asses. I’m like, you are literally hitting me and you don’t even know my name. That’s so rude. Like, are you serious? I’m usually just like, my God, that’s not free. And it’s certainly not okay to do without asking, but I don’t like turn around and like slap him in the face. I mean, a guy tweaked my nipple once and I just, just got convinced I hit him. I got cheered though. I was lucky to work at a club where everyone was like, hell yeah.
Lisa (42:16.641)
Right. Yeah.
Lisa (42:34.051)
No.
Lisa (42:39.091)
man, I wish my club would fire me in a second.
Karma chase (42:40.514)
But, you know, I’ve worked at some clubs where they’re not into that. And I’ve worked at some clubs where they’re a hundred percent behind you. I’ve worked at a lot of clubs over the years. I travel and,
Lisa (42:48.77)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (42:54.194)
Mm-mm.
Karma chase (43:01.07)
I think it’s taught me, it’s taught me like how to be understanding and empathetic while holding people accountable at the same time. And also not letting anyone cross my boundary because of my understanding and my empathy. It’s just like, no, no, no, that’s like, that’s a line and that’s a good line and you crossed it. So now I don’t have to, I don’t have to feel bad. Like I understand why it’s been taught this.
Lisa (43:10.061)
Mm-hmm.
Karma chase (43:31.272)
and how you’ve come to the idea that it’s okay to treat people this way, but that’s not my problem. That’s your problem and you’re gonna, at least in this moment, you’re gonna take that.
and you’re going to be responsible for it in my space and in my energy.
Lisa (43:53.731)
I love that. Yeah, I love that this journey has gotten into such a place where, like you were saying, you have that sense of value and self-worth because it’s almost like the boobs are a costume that you put on and you try things out. Yeah, they’re a costume. Oh, yeah. Right. It’s all a costume, you know, and in life, before we wrap up, like,
Karma chase (44:10.894)
Oh, they’re 100 % a costume. The hair too, like very long hair is also such a costume. Yeah.
Lisa (44:23.395)
I just think this is like, it’s such a great spiritual conversation because in life we can apply the same thinking. Everything is a costume. And at any moment you can decide I’m going to change this. I might decide 10 years from now, take them off. I don’t want any of this anymore. yeah, yeah.
Karma chase (44:32.12)
Yeah, absolutely.
Karma chase (44:41.922)
You can pick up that armor if you want to and put it on, or you can choose to have a moment where you put it down and be vulnerable and you get to decipher what that is.
Lisa (44:50.189)
Yes.
Yes, exactly. You have so much emotional maturity and man, I wish that I would have, it took me a long time. It took me a really long time. I’m still working on it, but I wish I would have had that when I was your age. I think you should congratulate yourself for getting what you got out of this journey because I’m willing to wager that you probably got a lot more out of it than what you thought you were getting when you gave that doctor $12,000. Like you got something far.
Karma chase (44:57.123)
Thank you.
Lisa (45:19.82)
far more hard to explain and less tangible, but so much more valuable than just all the money that you made from this experience. Is there anything that, yeah, no, go ahead, Is there anything that we didn’t talk about today that you wanna leave the conversation with before we close?
Karma chase (45:29.092)
gratitude to myself for figuring that out.
Karma chase (45:40.526)
Mmm
Karma chase (45:44.43)
I mean, just take some time other than the money. What is a reason that you would choose to alter your meat suit? It’s your body and what is that gonna look like and feel like for you throughout your entire life? And pay attention to what
your subconscious, your instinct, gut is really telling you. I would just say, you know, take a minute and think about it first, because there are so many ramifications that you don’t know about. And I’m a proponent for.
Lisa (46:16.685)
Yes.
Karma chase (46:29.77)
any kind of elective surgery that you want to have for any reason. But as long as you just really think about your come come approach it from an authentic place and be honest with yourself.
Lisa (46:41.859)
Mm-hmm, well said. Mm-hmm, 100%. This has been such an enlightening and surprisingly spiritual conversation. It’s been so great getting to hear your experience today. Is anyone that wants to find you online, where can they find you?
Karma chase (47:02.955)
so on Instagram, it’s a new Instagram. My last one got deleted for slutty reasons. it’s karma. K R a dot chase four four four.
Lisa (47:15.171)
Okay. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Karma chase (47:19.202)
Thank you for the platform. really appreciate you guys taking the time to talk to me.
Lisa (47:23.583)
Yeah, all right. Have a great day. Bye.
Karma chase (47:26.262)
You too. Bye, guys.
Am I leaving? Am I just pressing leave? Alright, cool. Alright, thanks. Bye.
Lisa (47:32.149)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can go ahead and log out.
AM Davies (47:35.462)
I’ll message you. That was awesome. You were great.
Bye.
Lisa (47:40.652)
Bye.
AM Davies (47:44.358)
I’m just making notes.
47, 50. Hey, that was amazing. You guys were great together. She was so interesting. Yeah.
Lisa (47:55.446)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Should we do the exit thing and then do the convo? on. Hold on. Let’s take a quick break and then come back for a chat with our producer.
AM Davies (48:04.826)
What exit thing? What did I do? Am I messing up? I came here to chat with you.
Lisa (48:17.955)
We should just leave that in. We’re really bad at this.
AM Davies (48:18.022)
You’re so smart. I know. Possibly. No, it’s new. new. All right. Hold on. A.M. and then a break. No, everything’s fine. Yeah.
Lisa (48:26.782)
Do you me do it again?
Okay, so they were so composed and to have an experience like that where you made a huge, huge decision financially and also physically and then have to then realize I’m a different person and hold on to that resolve. I don’t know how to have that kind of strength. wow.
AM Davies (48:40.038)
I know.
AM Davies (48:51.876)
Right.
AM Davies (48:58.47)
Yeah, I don’t know where all that strength and like that came from. mean, it was really impressive. I was really impressed that there was no ums and ahs, know, like they just spoke like so thoughtfully, you know. Yeah, and the 45 minutes went by so fast. Actually, yeah, I could have just sat and listened to them talk for longer.
Lisa (49:15.555)
of
Lisa (49:21.975)
Mm-hmm.
AM Davies (49:28.55)
for sure. And because it gave me a lot to think about as someone who, you know, I identify as by gender and I’ve got these like huge double D’s natural on my body. like, there have been times, right, and there have been times where I’ve considered a reduction just because these johns are fucking huge. Like, no, I don’t need double D tits. Like, it’s ridiculous, right? But it’s just what I was given by my DNA.
Lisa (49:29.804)
Yeah.
Lisa (49:41.825)
I was thinking of you.
Lisa (49:49.827)
you
AM Davies (49:58.16)
Thanks, Grandma.
Lisa (49:58.467)
Have you thought about like doing the reduction surgery?
AM Davies (50:02.49)
I won’t do it. I won’t do it because I’ve had enough surgeries to my body with my amputation. And I’m so used to them at this point. And even though I identify as by gender, I technically still identify as a woman. And also they made me so much money for so long. I am really great.
Lisa (50:07.5)
Yeah.
Lisa (50:20.931)
Sure.
Lisa (50:26.595)
It’s like, this like keepsake that is attached to your body.
AM Davies (50:33.35)
Yeah, I’m really grateful for them. And there’s no way that like, when I was working, I would have had a reduction. And now I’m like, almost, you know, I’m 44. And it’s like, I’m just so accustomed to them at this point, I think it would feel weird without them. But there are times where I’m like, I, you were talking about tools and I view my feminine body as a tool.
And when I would dress up for work and put the extensions in and put the makeup on and all that, I felt like I was in drag. I felt like I was in a costume. That’s why I didn’t celebrate Halloween. People are like, Halloween, Halloween. I’m like, bro, I dress up in costumes every day of my life. Like I don’t need to be, you know.
Lisa (51:08.002)
Totally.
Lisa (51:15.779)
That’s true though. If you only knew it takes me a whole hour to do all of this. Yeah. Yeah.
AM Davies (51:22.374)
at least, you know, and so it was just really interesting. was just the body dysphoria that we were taught that that they were talking about. I wasn’t talking about is so interesting. And it what I remember when seeing Karma’s message thinking this is not anything I even would have considered. If I were to get.
Lisa (51:46.627)
Mm-hmm.
AM Davies (51:50.774)
any kind of elective surgery. I don’t think I would have even considered my gender because I’m considering the fucking patriarchy. Because I’m conditioned to do that still, even though I am aware, even though I see all of this shit, I’m still conditioned by the patriarchy to think of that before how I feel in my own body. Wild. That’s some bullshit.
Lisa (52:00.759)
Yeah.
Lisa (52:16.111)
I’m interested to see like what the industry starts to evolve into now that people are getting information on how to break their mind of that at a younger age like because we’re the same age so we grew up with teen magazine all this shit yeah yeah I know
AM Davies (52:27.108)
Right. Yeah.
AM Davies (52:33.796)
God, we’ve been so conditioned. And then yeah, and then you’re right. Like I listened to these younger people, like you said to Karma, you’re like, I wish I knew this when I was younger. I do that all the time because they just have access to the internet and social media and like this exchange of information at a younger age where their brains are more elastic than us. And we were just introduced so late and so overwhelmingly. wasn’t just it, like for them,
Lisa (52:40.803)
Hahaha.
I
Lisa (52:52.393)
Yeah. Yeah.
AM Davies (53:00.368)
for the younger generation, they wake up into this technology. For us, it was like, I don’t know how to explain it. I feel like it was harder because it like wasn’t there and then it was. And that it was overwhelming. It still is overwhelming. Yeah.
Lisa (53:10.861)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (53:14.697)
yeah, I spent three hours yesterday making one Instagram reel and I just I couldn’t look at a screen after that. I was like so angry.
AM Davies (53:24.806)
Yeah, it’s hard to have, like I spent my childhood and my young adulthood like being outside and playing. And now I’m like in front of a computer, blah, blah, blah. Anyways, we’re totally off topic, but I am very impressed with the younger generation and they were wonderful. And I’m just, I’m stoked for this series. I think this is great. Yeah.
Lisa (53:32.438)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (53:47.969)
Yeah, I’m hoping for the next generation of strippers, sex workers to have a climate that allows them to be their identity. You know, I feel like I’m making a big protest by not having my nails done, but wouldn’t it be great if there were more clubs that have more non-binary performers and it would just be, my club actually has two non-binary,
AM Davies (54:11.078)
Yes, that would be fucking rad.
Lisa (54:17.731)
One I don’t see very often, yeah. Yeah. me about it. Someday. It used to be like that. used to be clubs that were co-ed.
AM Davies (54:18.978)
I’m like, dude, I want some coed shit. That’s what I want. yeah. Yeah. Coed queer. That’s what I want. Yes. Coed queer. Anyway, this is great. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (54:30.357)
Yeah, more queer.
Yeah, thank you. was fun. Looking forward to more.
All right, okay, so what do we have to do? that’s it for today. Thank you so much for listening and please remember to like, subscribe and rate our podcasts. See you soon.
AM Davies (54:57.029)
Bye!